Minimum wage [modified]
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Yes, the great CG can't possibly be wrong. I told Oakman and I'm telling you that I personally know who she is. It's not CSS and it's not me. So go ahead and puff yourself up and play the ass. You should be able to figure out that I'd do nothing to try to help CSS.
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
modified on Monday, March 22, 2010 1:00 AM
Tim Craig wrote:
Yes, the great CG can't possibly be wrong
I didn't say that, not ever.
Tim Craig wrote:
I told Oakman and I'm telling you that I personally know who she is
Well, I never saw you say that. My second guess would be that he/she is someone who posts here b/c of knowing someone who asked them to/showed them the forum.
Tim Craig wrote:
So go ahead and puff yourself up and play the ass.
It seems what ever I do, you assume I am doing that. That's why I try to avoid wasting time on talking to you.
Tim Craig wrote:
You should be able to figure out that I'd do nothing to try to help CSS.
I find it interesting to consider that this proves that going for the most likely/obvious solution obviously doesn't always work. As I said before, I made a value judgemnet that this was either CSS ( seemed likely ) or someone who doesn't care much about the site. I was careful to not be abusive in case I was wrong. If I was, then fair enough. I didn't even know/remember that you and Oakman had discussed it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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LunaticFringe wrote:
There was a time when a blue-collar, Archie Bunker type could, with a regular 40 hour per week job, have some hope of buying a little home and improving his lot, and that of his offspring, in life. Sadly, that's no longer as true as it was. If at all.
And the real question is not, is that capitalism or is that socialism, as if all of lifes goods and bads can be so easily defined. The real question is, does that outcome benefit society as a whole, and if not, are we willing to live with it just because we live above it ( presumably, given that this is a site for professional people, CSS being an obvious exception ).
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Personally, by the classic definition, I suppose my own tendency is towards a socialistic democracy along a northern European model. Of course, the very mention of that would be anathema here. Here, in the state with the lowest minimum wage. I've said it before, I'll say it again - the brilliance of the Republican party over the last 30 years lay in convincing the people who were being screwed the worst by their policies that they somehow stood to gain. That whole 'trickle-down' concept, if you will. (That trickle you feel is the piss running down the back of your neck.) [edit] spelling... [/edit]
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, March 22, 2010 2:30 AM
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Personally, by the classic definition, I suppose my own tendency is towards a socialistic democracy along a northern European model. Of course, the very mention of that would be anathema here. Here, in the state with the lowest minimum wage. I've said it before, I'll say it again - the brilliance of the Republican party over the last 30 years lay in convincing the people who were being screwed the worst by their policies that they somehow stood to gain. That whole 'trickle-down' concept, if you will. (That trickle you feel is the piss running down the back of your neck.) [edit] spelling... [/edit]
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, March 22, 2010 2:30 AM
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Personally, by the classic definition, I suppose my own tendency is towards a socialistic democracy along a northern European model. Of course, the very mention of that would be anathema here. Here, in the state with the lowest minimum wage. I've said it before, I'll say it again - the brilliance of the Republican party over the last 30 years lay in convincing the people who were being screwed the worst by their policies that they somehow stood to gain. That whole 'trickle-down' concept, if you will. (That trickle you feel is the piss running down the back of your neck.) [edit] spelling... [/edit]
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
modified on Monday, March 22, 2010 2:30 AM
LunaticFringe wrote:
the brilliance of the Republican party over the last 30 years lay in convincing the people who were being screwed the worst by their policies that they somehow stood to gain.
Absolutely. Just like the people in the book I read, who thought because they were contractors, they should vote for the local equivelant. Just like corporations making people a 'manager' to make them work harder for the same pay.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Pissing on our legs and trying to tell is it's raining soup? :laugh:
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
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There's no association. Tell me your thoughts. I'd love a rational response instead of the stuff CSS presents.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The minimum wage is $5.15 an hour in the US
$7.25 but I might be fooling you.
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Christian Graus wrote:
t's still the case that the government is not acting in a remotely socialist way
Last thing before I let the M1 finish the job. Again, you are not genuine, you are simply being a POS sociopath scumbag, the lowest of the low. Ten pillars of communism. 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state. 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of civil army. 9. Abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Ten pillars of communism.
When will you start going to the original sources? These are not 'The Ten Pillars of Communism'. The Communist Manifesto acknowledges that each country would need to use different means by which the proletariat would, over time, remove capital from the bourgeoisie and centralise the means of production into its own hands. The so-called 'pillars' are merely those measures "pretty generally applicable" to "most advanced countries". (I.E. 19th century Industrialised Society.) 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. There, if you are going to quote, you may as well quote correctly.
Bob Emmett CSS: I don't intend to be a technical writing, I intend to be a software engineer.
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Tim Craig wrote:
Gee, you insist on being exactly the same kind of ass Oakman was over her.
You're saying this is a girl ? I could care less. CSS uses fake accounts at times, and this person may well not be CSS ( I did say that, in fact ), but it's far more logical to assume that an account that just happens to have only ever posted in the soapbox, seems at first glance to have been used to support CSSs views, and has been used very rarely over the space of many years ( and, most important, seems to have understood the rules of the SB from the moment they somehow found it and started posting here ), is CSS. I thought you were a big fan of Occams Razor ? The chances are one of two things: 1 - it's CSS and I'm not falling for it 2 - it's someone who cares so little about this site they post here every few months, despite being fully conversant with the nature of the soapbox and only posting here If it's 1, I win. If it's 2, which is unlikely, then I risk offending someone who doesn't care much about the site anyhow, so there's no major harm done. Either way, I've only politely commented, I've not been abusive, and I've admitted I don't know for sure, I'm just making a common sense assumption.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian, you've accused me twice of being CSS. You have this tendency to call people names when there is only one person you should be calling CSS, whether people agree with CSS on issues or not. It's basically a very odd form of association that you have to do in your head. It's like you do it to make yourself feel better. If everyone that disagrees with you is CSS, then you're minimalizing the other side, and you win. Cut it out Christian. Try to defend yourself with logic instead of taking it out on everyone and mocking them because they have differing opinions. Wow, I just made you sound like CSS. I'm not sure that's far from truth... lol jk I can hear the booing and hissing as I type this.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Looks like people are getting paid less due to inflation
The government does not create inflation. Even if it did, the concept of any minimum wage is meant to be a form of protection for low skilled workers from being exploited. That it's not being enforced to do that in the US is a failure of unfettered capitalism, not socialism. It's a total absence of socialism that is creating this problem.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The government does not create inflation.
No. Of course not. The Central banks are not public, they're private, and they control the money supply (and in effect, inflation.) Nice job at pointing that out.
Christian Graus wrote:
Even if it did, the concept of any minimum wage is meant to be a form of protection for low skilled workers from being exploited.
That's what it's meant to do, yes. But that also means that some are without jobs, and getting no income at all, unless they get unemployment benefits, which is just a ridiculous idea, because their pile of set-aside money depletes eventually anyway, and has to get another job quickly. And if they don't, they're screwed. I'd rather have the job and get paid less than to not have a job at all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That it's not being enforced to do that in the US is a failure of unfettered capitalism, not socialism.
If it's not enforced, how is that a capitalistic problem? That's a government problem. Government is slow by nature, for the very fact that it just can not do everything efficiently. Where does capitalism come into that picture?
Christian Graus wrote:
It's a total absence of socialism that is creating this problem.
No, definitely not. The socialistic structure is in place, but the government isn't following through on its part of the bargain, as usual. So as to the statement itself, "Looks like people are getting paid less due to inflation", I agree. The value of the dollar is dropping, and so even though people are being paid more physical dollars, the value of each dollar is less, therefore that's why people in america need to have 2 or 3 jobs per household, instead of having the classic, "Father goes to work, Mother stays home" scenario.
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The core of the health issue, is that the government allows corporations to exploit their workforce. The minimum wage is $5.15 an hour in the US. Assume a 40 hour week and you get $10,700 a year. However, places like Target hire mostly casual staff, and hire too many, so that they fight amongst themselves for hours, and never know if they will get work from one week to the next. So, being generous, people on minimum wage probably work two jobs, work 60 horus a week and live on $14k ( b/c no-one could live on $7k a year ). That $1160 a month. Now take a health care system where a basic doctors visit without insurance costs $500 ( remember as these are casual workers they get no health benefits, no sick days, no annual leave ), and it's clear that there's no room for these overworked, undernourished people to get sick. So, once again, unfettered capitalism is allowed to exploit societies weakest members and just throw them on the trash heap when that work wears them out and they are no longer fit to keep working. How is that 'liberty and the pursuit of happiness' ? Our government lets corporations do this, too, but our minimum wage is $13.49 for full time work and $16.19 for casual work. That's more than THREE times what it is in the US. We have a sliding scale, so people from start of work to 20, work up to that minimum. That means there's a minimum for kids working for pocket money and a minimum for adults. The US does not have this, ostensibly to protect kids from being paid too little, but really it's to stop adults from being paid enough. The casual minimum wage for kids under 16 is $7.20. That's right, a 15 yo here gets 40% more for working at McDonalds than a 35 year old man in the USA would get.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
modified on Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:14 PM
Christian Graus wrote:
government allows corporations to exploit their workforce
Paying somebody to do a job they willingly accepted is not exploitation. My first job was at ShopKo. If you've never heard of it, think low end Target. They paid me a whopping $4.25 an hour, the minimum at the time. I was happy to have the crap job. But I knew it was a crap job so I worked hard to better myself and get the hell out of there.
Christian Graus wrote:
How is that 'liberty and the pursuit of happiness' ?
The liberty and pursuit of happiness come from your ability to better your situation. Those who choose not to have nobody to blame but themselves. There are any number of educational resources and loans available to pretty much anyone who wants to take advantage of them here in the US. I don't think the minimum wage is the problem. I think the problem is the people who decide that's all they are worth. If people want more they should expect to work for it not have it handed to them. Any 35yo working at McDonalds is there because of his own life decisions. McDonalds isn't to blame for that.
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Christian Graus wrote:
government allows corporations to exploit their workforce
Paying somebody to do a job they willingly accepted is not exploitation. My first job was at ShopKo. If you've never heard of it, think low end Target. They paid me a whopping $4.25 an hour, the minimum at the time. I was happy to have the crap job. But I knew it was a crap job so I worked hard to better myself and get the hell out of there.
Christian Graus wrote:
How is that 'liberty and the pursuit of happiness' ?
The liberty and pursuit of happiness come from your ability to better your situation. Those who choose not to have nobody to blame but themselves. There are any number of educational resources and loans available to pretty much anyone who wants to take advantage of them here in the US. I don't think the minimum wage is the problem. I think the problem is the people who decide that's all they are worth. If people want more they should expect to work for it not have it handed to them. Any 35yo working at McDonalds is there because of his own life decisions. McDonalds isn't to blame for that.
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So between this site and the one you linked to before ( wikipedia ) I am to conclude there's a federal minimum wage, but some states have a lower minimum ? How is that possible ? Doesn't that mean the federal one is a joke ? $7, $5, makes no difference to the core point I was making.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
$7, $5, makes no difference to the core point I was making.
Do you consider the prices when you’re playing with those numbers? With $7 in the local supermarket you could buy some 4 lbs. of meat, 4-6 pieces of canned fruit or vegies, a few pounds of almost any fresh fruits or vegetables without the exotic ones. What you can get for seven dollars in Australia?
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Christian, you've accused me twice of being CSS. You have this tendency to call people names when there is only one person you should be calling CSS, whether people agree with CSS on issues or not. It's basically a very odd form of association that you have to do in your head. It's like you do it to make yourself feel better. If everyone that disagrees with you is CSS, then you're minimalizing the other side, and you win. Cut it out Christian. Try to defend yourself with logic instead of taking it out on everyone and mocking them because they have differing opinions. Wow, I just made you sound like CSS. I'm not sure that's far from truth... lol jk I can hear the booing and hissing as I type this.
booing hissing ;)
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booing hissing ;)
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I guess the site I found reported the absolute minimum ( which is in Wyoming ), or the Federal minimum ( which I expect is the lower of the two, the states going above, but not below, what the Federal government decides is the allowable minimum ). My point stands, on every level.
dragonflower wrote:
i only have one account.
Which has only ever been used in the soapbox, and only 22 times. I'm sorry if this is true, but given the nature of this forum, the fact it is hidden, and the fact that it's on a site for programmers, what you say does not gel with the tendency some users have to run many accounts.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
$5.15 is the minimum from a few years ago. When state and federal values are different the higher of the two prevails. Wyoming apparently hasn't bothered to amend a law that's no longer relevant because the feds have trumped it.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Looks like people are getting paid less due to inflation
The government does not create inflation. Even if it did, the concept of any minimum wage is meant to be a form of protection for low skilled workers from being exploited. That it's not being enforced to do that in the US is a failure of unfettered capitalism, not socialism. It's a total absence of socialism that is creating this problem.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The government does not create inflation. Even if it did, the concept of any minimum wage is meant to be a form of protection for low skilled workers from being exploited. That it's not being enforced to do that in the US is a failure of unfettered capitalism, not socialism. It's a total absence of socialism that is creating this problem.
The government can create inflation, or kill jobs. A company produces widget, and sells them for 100 dinar. 55 cover fixed costs. 20 cover materials/production overhead 20 cover labor, which is being minimum wage. 5 is profit. The factory runs at about 80% capacity. It produces 100 widgets per day, and It invested in smart machines, and can use unskilled labor. The widget demand is fairly inelastic. People spend an average of 20% of their income on widgets. Case 1, create inflation. The government comes in and doubles the minimum wage. The manufacturer has to raise the price of widgets by 10%. Now everyone spends an average of 22% of their income to get the same good. (Widgets, being such an important part of the economy, are part of the CPI.) Raising the cost of widgets has reduced income for everyone above the new MW by 2%. This has caused 2% inflation. Case 2, cost jobs Foreign widget producers use stupid machines and semiskilled labor being paid less than our MW. Most in-country widget manufacturers use smart machines, or have been driven out of business. The local widget cost about the same as foreign widgets, since the smart machines drive down labor costs. The foreign producers will not be forced to raise their labor costs. Raise price 10% and most people will buy foreign. There is still 20% capacity remaining. Using it does not increase fixed costs, only labor & material/production overhead. I could hire more people and work the plant at 100%, my output would go up to 125. There is no maintenance time built into that, which is an issue. Costs would be 55 + 1.25*(60) = 130/1.25 = 104 dinar, before profits. What is the factory owner supposed to do? He is in it for a profit, so why would he want to continue his business at a loss? He dumps his workers and attempts to sell the machines over-seas, at a loss, since it would not be financially viable for anyone else here to buy them and produce widgets. A restaurant that has to cut waitrons by 50% will end up delivering worse service. A guys runs a shop and has one employee to run the shop while he is