50 Best Sci-Fi TV shows of all time
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I just stopped caring at that point and we lost interest. They could have turned the show around, but at that point we had a scientist that was the fly and now working as a bad guy, Hiro's best friend was probably going to be a bad guy, 2 invincible bad guys with ridiculous powers aside from that, and arguable the most powerful person had been stripped of his powers in a dues ex machina move by a guy that was one of those invincible bad guys. It had just gotten annoying. As for the monster thing: I liked him that way. Humanizing someone that left a trail of bodies with skulls cracked open wasn't exactly going to work. Him being a victim of his powers just seemed to easy an excuse to forgive a guy that was hunting children occasionally.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
They could have turned the show around, but at that point we had a scientist that was the fly and now working as a bad guy, Hiro's best friend was probably going to be a bad guy, 2 invincible bad guys with ridiculous powers aside from that, and arguable the most powerful person had been stripped of his powers in a dues ex machina move by a guy that was one of those invincible bad guys.
Yeah, that's pretty much the low point for the entire series. After that season, they got back on track and redeemed themselves... The writers, I mean. I do think stripping Peter's abilities was a good thing, though... He was getting too powerful, which makes it difficult to have any meaningful struggle. They should have done something similar with Sylar, for the same reason.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
As for the monster thing: I liked him that way. Humanizing someone that left a trail of bodies with skulls cracked open wasn't exactly going to work. Him being a victim of his powers just seemed to easy an excuse to forgive a guy that was hunting children occasionally.
But that's the point... They don't want you to forgive him. They want to put you on the fence... Should I hate this guy or not? Is he really bad, or just sick? He's not meant to be completely evil. Now, the elder Petrelli (The one who stole powers) was basically the "evil" archetype, and so were some of the minor characters. Sylar is more complicated.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Heh...classic interwebs argument. IMO, much like your post was your opinnion, an evil person is someone who takes pleasure in evil acts. Just because someone perpetrates evil acts doesn't mean that those people are necesarily evil. I don't discount the possiblity that those people were evil. But I don't look at history and make that judgement either. Hitler wasn't killing Jews because he enjoyed killing jews. He did it because he thought he was creating a better world by eliminating what he saw as a problem. That doesn't sound too evil to me. Ghengis Khan existed in a completely different world. In his world, what he did wasn't even considered immoral, let alone evil. It is very easy to look back at history and decide, based upon current world assumptions, what was good and what was evil. Because we are now "civilized", we consider killing things evil. Well guess what, there is evidence to suggest that we are outgrowing our planet and the lack of killing things is causing global warming and the lack of natural resources. We very well might look back in 100-500 years and see that the actions of entire populations of the 20th and 21st centuries were "evil" because we wiped out most of our population. Of course I am not advocating genocide here, I'm simply not about to judge someone as evil just because I don't agree with thier actions...especially when I really don't know why or under what circumstances they performed those actions. Doing so would be ignorant.
kinar wrote:
IMO, much like your post was your opinnion
Agreed.
kinar wrote:
Just because someone perpetrates evil acts doesn't mean that those people are necesarily evil.
That makes no sense.
kinar wrote:
Of course I am not advocating genocide here
That's really good of you.
kinar wrote:
especially when I really don't know why or under what circumstances they performed those actions. Doing so would be ignorant.
AS far as Hitler and Pol-Pot (who you didn't even know) are concerned their motivations are well documented. Try reading about them before excusing them.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think it's been done to some degree with vampires, but no examples come to mind.
Blade. The hemotologist develops a retrovirus to cure herself of a bite.
Yeah, I was thinking of that, but it's kinda borderline. They explain the blood-drinking, but don't explain how it makes them super-strong, burn up in daylight, die from silver, etc etc. And they especially don't explain the shapeshifting bad guy in the last movie.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
kinar wrote:
or anything dealin with vamps, warewolves, etc
Unless the source of said vampires/werewolves is described as failed genetics or bio-warfare experiment, and their "special traits" are explained in scientific terms. Certain zombie movies have achieved this... I think it's been done to some degree with vampires, but no examples come to mind.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
kinar wrote:
IMO, much like your post was your opinnion
Agreed.
kinar wrote:
Just because someone perpetrates evil acts doesn't mean that those people are necesarily evil.
That makes no sense.
kinar wrote:
Of course I am not advocating genocide here
That's really good of you.
kinar wrote:
especially when I really don't know why or under what circumstances they performed those actions. Doing so would be ignorant.
AS far as Hitler and Pol-Pot (who you didn't even know) are concerned their motivations are well documented. Try reading about them before excusing them.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
digital man wrote:
kinar wrote: Just because someone perpetrates evil acts doesn't mean that those people are necesarily evil. That makes no sense.
Since we're on a WWII kick... In 1945, the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, basically obliterating two cities. Why? To end the war and prevent the greater loss of life that would have resulted from a full invasion. Does that make the US an "Evil Empire," like some radicals call us? We did a horrible thing, causing a large amount of pain and suffering for a lot of people, but we did it for what we thought was a good reason. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but the act itself was still "evil." History still considers us to be the good guys.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I can agree to that... I was thinking the same thing when I posted it but I couldn't think of a TV show that took that angle...as you mentioned, several movies/games have (Resident Evil for example).
Yep, Resident Evil was the one I was thinking of... You could also point to Omega Man / I am Legend... Monsters created by science. Even Frankenstein could be considered sci-fi, I think, though I'm not very familiar with the original story.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
I don't like it when shows decide "Ok, this guy is 100% evil"... In real life, there's no such thing as "good" and "evil"
Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Pol Pot, Simon Cowell?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Pol Pot, Simon Cowell?
Oh, come on! That's very unfair! . . . on Hitler, Ghengis Khan and Pol Pot. Andy B
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Yeah, I was thinking of that, but it's kinda borderline. They explain the blood-drinking, but don't explain how it makes them super-strong, burn up in daylight, die from silver, etc etc. And they especially don't explain the shapeshifting bad guy in the last movie.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)MUTANTS! duh!
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Evil is a matter of perspective. I doubt Hitler thought he was the "bad guy"... He thought he was "purifying" the human race, right? The whole "Aryan nation" garbage? Yeah, from OUR perspective, he was "evil", but really he just had a different point of view... And needed to die a painful death.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Evil is a matter of perspective.
Sorry to call bullshit on this! There are *some* cases where "evil" might be a POV. But the ones Dave listed definitely don't fall under that. Under no circumstance does killing millions of innocents fall under anything but evil. It's wrong, no ifs ands or buts about it. Hitler was nuts, possibly a sociopath, but in the end he was just plain wrong. Ditto for Pol Pot, Stalin, and friends. I understand that there's a whole lot of gray area in life, and certainly POV needs to be taken into account, but there's also a point where things are just plain wrong.
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Yep, Resident Evil was the one I was thinking of... You could also point to Omega Man / I am Legend... Monsters created by science. Even Frankenstein could be considered sci-fi, I think, though I'm not very familiar with the original story.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Frankenstein figures out electricity can be used to reanimate dead tissue. Does it on grand scale. Creation gets up and Frankenstein books it in a fit of remorse, terror, and suddenly realizing he played god. Creation is effectively a small child in mentality and has abandonment issues. These get resolved by way of killing a child and framing Frankenstein, there is a big showdown where they explore their feelings, and then death. This was written just as people started playing with electricity. People could stimulate muscles in dead people, so it wasn't that far fetched at the time.
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Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Pol Pot
kinar wrote:
You consider those people evil? I don't so much.
That has to be the dumbest and most ignorant thing I've read all day. They personify evil in a very real way: they used violence and killing as a means to an end and thought nothing of committing genocide and, apart from everything else they did, killed millions of innocent people. That's not evil? Only form their perspective, perhaps, but not from any sane point of view.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
digital man wrote:
That has to be the dumbest and most ignorant thing I've read all day
The Hobbsian view of morality. It even has a name. :) from link below; Hobbes believed that in man’s natural state, moral ideas do not exist. Thus, in speaking of human nature, he defines good simply as that which people desire and evil as that which they avoid, at least in the state of nature. Hobbes uses these definitions as bases for explaining a variety of emotions and behaviors. For example, hope is the prospect of attaining some apparent good, whereas fear is the recognition that some apparent good may not be attainable. Hobbes admits, however, that this definition is only tenable as long as we consider men outside of the constraints of law and society. In the state of nature, when the only sense of good and evil derives from individuals’ appetites and desires, general rules about whether actions are good or evil do not exist. Hobbes believes that moral judgments about good and evil cannot exist until they are decreed by a society’s central authority. This position leads directly to Hobbes’s belief in an autocratic and absolutist form of government. click[^] Of course Hobbs is evil.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Evil is a matter of perspective.
Sorry to call bullshit on this! There are *some* cases where "evil" might be a POV. But the ones Dave listed definitely don't fall under that. Under no circumstance does killing millions of innocents fall under anything but evil. It's wrong, no ifs ands or buts about it. Hitler was nuts, possibly a sociopath, but in the end he was just plain wrong. Ditto for Pol Pot, Stalin, and friends. I understand that there's a whole lot of gray area in life, and certainly POV needs to be taken into account, but there's also a point where things are just plain wrong.
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Does that include Simon Cowell?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Does that include Simon Cowell?
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Actually I'm pretty sure Simon Cowell falls under a completely different defintion on evil... Dante would have undoubtedly worked out a 10th level of Hell just for him :)
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Evil is a matter of perspective.
Sorry to call bullshit on this! There are *some* cases where "evil" might be a POV. But the ones Dave listed definitely don't fall under that. Under no circumstance does killing millions of innocents fall under anything but evil. It's wrong, no ifs ands or buts about it. Hitler was nuts, possibly a sociopath, but in the end he was just plain wrong. Ditto for Pol Pot, Stalin, and friends. I understand that there's a whole lot of gray area in life, and certainly POV needs to be taken into account, but there's also a point where things are just plain wrong.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
Under no circumstance does killing millions of innocents fall under anything but evil.
Sure, killing people is "evil"... Unless you're in a war... Or they're "bad guys"... Or you were protecting yourself... Or they don't worship the same deity... Or they live on the other side of the border... Or they're messing around on your side of the border... Again, I don't know much about Pol Pot, but Hitler THOUGHT he was creating a better world. He thought the ends justified the means, an argument just about every group has taken at one point or another. If the Axis had won WWII, they would be the ones writing the history books, and I bet we would be the "evil" ones.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
MUTANTS! duh!
Ya know, after this discussion, I'm starting to think I should take Heroes off my list... Not because it isn't a great show, but because it's more fantasy than sci-fi... I mean sure, genetic mutations could explain SOME of the powers... Like... uh... wait, no, I don't think it could explain any of them.
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Dr Who (soon be 50 years old!) Blakes 7 Hitch-Hiker Guide to the Galaxy (in all it's forms) X-Files STTNG STV SG-SG1 SG-A BSG $VI000000MAN
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
Dr Who
I could never get into this. Every time I saw an episode when I was a kid it looked so awful I just cringed and could never finish it up.
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Frankenstein figures out electricity can be used to reanimate dead tissue. Does it on grand scale. Creation gets up and Frankenstein books it in a fit of remorse, terror, and suddenly realizing he played god. Creation is effectively a small child in mentality and has abandonment issues. These get resolved by way of killing a child and framing Frankenstein, there is a big showdown where they explore their feelings, and then death. This was written just as people started playing with electricity. People could stimulate muscles in dead people, so it wasn't that far fetched at the time.
Ok, so that's definitely in the realm of sci-fi. It's an extrapolation of current technology, kind of like the Jetsons.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Dr Who (soon be 50 years old!) Blakes 7 Hitch-Hiker Guide to the Galaxy (in all it's forms) X-Files STTNG STV SG-SG1 SG-A BSG $VI000000MAN
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
Hitch-Hiker Guide to the Galaxy (in all it's forms)
Not the TV mini-series... The books and radio shows, yeah, but I could never put the TV series on any top-10 list, and this is a list of TV shows :)
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Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Yep, mentioned that in an above post... Good example of monsters with a scientific basis.
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kinar wrote:
or anything dealin with vamps, warewolves, etc
Unless the source of said vampires/werewolves is described as failed genetics or bio-warfare experiment, and their "special traits" are explained in scientific terms. Certain zombie movies have achieved this... I think it's been done to some degree with vampires, but no examples come to mind.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)