Mental Health Note
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I dont think CSS is bonkers. He is aggressive, and has a direct way of saying things, but that isnt a sign of mental illness. Your case is interesing though. Seratonin and dopameme are very powerfull hormones and we are only beginning to understand just how 'chemicaly driven' personality is. We shouldnt be so surprised though, look at how women change personality once a month! What IS interesting is why these chmicals are produced differently from one person to another, Perhaps it is just as random as physical strengthm or bone structure. Are there any exercies, mental ones, or diet suppliments that can efect this without relying on drugs? HAving said that I have a friend who takes proxac on occasion. He rates it pretty highly but he llikes to try to manage without it. On discussing things with him I reallise that I experience simmilar thoughts and feelings as he does. I just always thought it was part of life though, and quite frankly I have lived sufficiently long enough to understand myself and how I tick, and how to deal with depressing thoughts and moods when they arise.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Are there any exercies, mental ones, or diet suppliments that can efect this without relying on drugs?
Pretty much any type of physical exercise is fantastic for improving mood because of the endorphins produced. Mental exercises I'm not aware of - and since it is a chemical imbalance, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to change that just by thinking about it. Dietary supplements are just dose-uncontrolled untested pharmacological agents - that's if they have any active substances in them at all.
fat_boy wrote:
I have lived sufficiently long enough to understand myself and how I tick, and how to deal with depressing thoughts and moods when they arise.
Which suggests you don't have any sort of chemical imbalance. Major depressive disorder looks like this[^]. Everyone gets a depressed mood from time to time, but it's nowhere near the severity of what these people experience.
- F
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RichardM1 wrote:
I'm talking about someone who has no value for human life.
And the concept of having "value for human life" comes from the brain, which can be altered due to a number of structural, chemical, or developmental causes. You seem eager to moralize about these structural, chemical, or environmental defects when your own disorder (that others in the past have been equally eager to characterize as "lazy" or simply "a lack of willpower") has a similar broad underlying cause. It just seems somewhat selective.
RichardM1 wrote:
But if a friend of mine had the same number of signs for cancer, or heart disease, I would ask them to get checked out.
Then specifically what is the number of signs you have seen that suggest CSS has a psychiatric disorder, and what are they?
RichardM1 wrote:
I don't think he is a danger to anyone but himself, and probably not himself.
How do you know?
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
And the concept of having "value for human life" comes from the brain, which can be altered due to a number of structural, chemical, or developmental causes.
Yes they can. But our decisions are our own. I have been suicidal, but I have chosen not to do it. It comes down to conscious decision, and what you are willing to do to your self and others.
Fisticuffs wrote:
You seem eager to moralize about these structural, chemical, or environmental defects when your own disorder (that others in the past have been equally eager to characterize as "lazy" or simply "a lack of willpower"). It just seems somewhat selective.
As devastating as my depression has been emotionally, I have always 'toughed it out', in terms of work. I have had major problems getting out of bed, but I do. YMMV. But that does not affect the major positive quality of life changes that getting treatment has had. That is all I have asked CSS to do, and why I told him to do it.
Fisticuffs wrote:
RichardM1 wrote:
I don't think he is a danger to anyone but himself, and probably not himself.
How do you know?
OK you win. He needs help.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Then specifically what is the number of signs you have seen that suggest CSS has a psychiatric disorder, and what are they?
The paranoia, the distrust of authority, the inability to see the fallacy of the arguments presented to him, and that he spews back to us. The ability to discount reality that does not fit his predefined notions. Th obsessive re-posting.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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fat_boy wrote:
Are there any exercies, mental ones, or diet suppliments that can efect this without relying on drugs?
Pretty much any type of physical exercise is fantastic for improving mood because of the endorphins produced. Mental exercises I'm not aware of - and since it is a chemical imbalance, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to change that just by thinking about it. Dietary supplements are just dose-uncontrolled untested pharmacological agents - that's if they have any active substances in them at all.
fat_boy wrote:
I have lived sufficiently long enough to understand myself and how I tick, and how to deal with depressing thoughts and moods when they arise.
Which suggests you don't have any sort of chemical imbalance. Major depressive disorder looks like this[^]. Everyone gets a depressed mood from time to time, but it's nowhere near the severity of what these people experience.
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
Mental exercises I'm not aware of - and since it is a chemical imbalance, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to change that just by thinking about it
My understanding is that studies showed that meds vs psychotherapy ended up with the same chemical changes, just the meds started quicker, but had less lasting impact when treatment stopped. IIRC it has been 15-20 years since I saw the study.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
Fisticuffs wrote:
And the concept of having "value for human life" comes from the brain, which can be altered due to a number of structural, chemical, or developmental causes.
Yes they can. But our decisions are our own. I have been suicidal, but I have chosen not to do it. It comes down to conscious decision, and what you are willing to do to your self and others.
Fisticuffs wrote:
You seem eager to moralize about these structural, chemical, or environmental defects when your own disorder (that others in the past have been equally eager to characterize as "lazy" or simply "a lack of willpower"). It just seems somewhat selective.
As devastating as my depression has been emotionally, I have always 'toughed it out', in terms of work. I have had major problems getting out of bed, but I do. YMMV. But that does not affect the major positive quality of life changes that getting treatment has had. That is all I have asked CSS to do, and why I told him to do it.
Fisticuffs wrote:
RichardM1 wrote:
I don't think he is a danger to anyone but himself, and probably not himself.
How do you know?
OK you win. He needs help.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Then specifically what is the number of signs you have seen that suggest CSS has a psychiatric disorder, and what are they?
The paranoia, the distrust of authority, the inability to see the fallacy of the arguments presented to him, and that he spews back to us. The ability to discount reality that does not fit his predefined notions. Th obsessive re-posting.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
Yes they can. But our decisions are our own. I have been suicidal, but I have chosen not to do it. It comes down to conscious decision, and what you are willing to do to your self and others.
That's great if you have the capacity and the anchoring in reality to make such a decision. People with severe psychotic disorders quite often do not. How is it possible to call anything a psychotic person does a "conscious" decision if they're distorting their external reality in such a significant way?
RichardM1 wrote:
The paranoia,
Of the government? Sounds like 50% of America.
RichardM1 wrote:
the distrust of authority
So all teenagers are mentally ill?
RichardM1 wrote:
the inability to see the fallacy of the arguments presented to him
Stupidity and/or obstinacy are not psychiatric disorders.
RichardM1 wrote:
The ability to discount reality that does not fit his predefined notions.
Every human in the world does this.
RichardM1 wrote:
Th obsessive re-posting.
Tenacity is not a sign of a psychiatric disorder.
- F
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Fisticuffs wrote:
Mental exercises I'm not aware of - and since it is a chemical imbalance, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to change that just by thinking about it
My understanding is that studies showed that meds vs psychotherapy ended up with the same chemical changes, just the meds started quicker, but had less lasting impact when treatment stopped. IIRC it has been 15-20 years since I saw the study.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
RichardM1 wrote:
Yes they can. But our decisions are our own. I have been suicidal, but I have chosen not to do it. It comes down to conscious decision, and what you are willing to do to your self and others.
That's great if you have the capacity and the anchoring in reality to make such a decision. People with severe psychotic disorders quite often do not. How is it possible to call anything a psychotic person does a "conscious" decision if they're distorting their external reality in such a significant way?
RichardM1 wrote:
The paranoia,
Of the government? Sounds like 50% of America.
RichardM1 wrote:
the distrust of authority
So all teenagers are mentally ill?
RichardM1 wrote:
the inability to see the fallacy of the arguments presented to him
Stupidity and/or obstinacy are not psychiatric disorders.
RichardM1 wrote:
The ability to discount reality that does not fit his predefined notions.
Every human in the world does this.
RichardM1 wrote:
Th obsessive re-posting.
Tenacity is not a sign of a psychiatric disorder.
- F
Yes each of those symtoms is on its own no indication of mental health issues, however the combination of all of them creates a cause for concern. its like most things in life if you fail to consider everything involved you stand a big chance of missing the problem.
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
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RichardM1 wrote:
psychotherapy
True, and now that I think about it, they have some pretty good success with CBT too.
- F
Computer Based Training? or is this the old CBT(compulsary basic training) you had to pass to get to ride your bike on the road
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
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RichardM1 wrote:
Yes they can. But our decisions are our own. I have been suicidal, but I have chosen not to do it. It comes down to conscious decision, and what you are willing to do to your self and others.
That's great if you have the capacity and the anchoring in reality to make such a decision. People with severe psychotic disorders quite often do not. How is it possible to call anything a psychotic person does a "conscious" decision if they're distorting their external reality in such a significant way?
RichardM1 wrote:
The paranoia,
Of the government? Sounds like 50% of America.
RichardM1 wrote:
the distrust of authority
So all teenagers are mentally ill?
RichardM1 wrote:
the inability to see the fallacy of the arguments presented to him
Stupidity and/or obstinacy are not psychiatric disorders.
RichardM1 wrote:
The ability to discount reality that does not fit his predefined notions.
Every human in the world does this.
RichardM1 wrote:
Th obsessive re-posting.
Tenacity is not a sign of a psychiatric disorder.
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
not a sign of a psychiatric disorder.
:rolleyes: Each and every one of those is a sign of psychiatric disorder. It all has to do with degree or severity. If you really know anything about this field, you'd know that.
Fisticuffs wrote:
So all teenagers are mentally ill?
I guess you don't have any teen age kids, every single on of them is nuts! :laugh: The raging hormones, the lack foresight and impulse control, all of it.
Fisticuffs wrote:
That's great if you have the capacity and the anchoring in reality to make such a decision. People with severe psychotic disorders quite often do not. How is it possible to call anything a psychotic person does a "conscious" decision if they're distorting their external reality in such a significant way?
Right, and that is why I semi specific as to which types were evil. Someone who can't tell a zebra from a chicken has no grip on reality, and they are not evil, just psychotic. Someone who can tell a person from a bag of crap, but will kick either one to get what they want for themselves, is evil, whatever the APA diagnoses is.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
Computer Based Training? or is this the old CBT(compulsary basic training) you had to pass to get to ride your bike on the road
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
-
fat_boy wrote:
Are there any exercies, mental ones, or diet suppliments that can efect this without relying on drugs?
Pretty much any type of physical exercise is fantastic for improving mood because of the endorphins produced. Mental exercises I'm not aware of - and since it is a chemical imbalance, it's unlikely that anyone will be able to change that just by thinking about it. Dietary supplements are just dose-uncontrolled untested pharmacological agents - that's if they have any active substances in them at all.
fat_boy wrote:
I have lived sufficiently long enough to understand myself and how I tick, and how to deal with depressing thoughts and moods when they arise.
Which suggests you don't have any sort of chemical imbalance. Major depressive disorder looks like this[^]. Everyone gets a depressed mood from time to time, but it's nowhere near the severity of what these people experience.
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
physical exercise is fantastic for improving mood because of the endorphins produced
Yes, very true and well known.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Major depressive disorder looks like this[^].
So complete lack of interest in life, total despondancy, and strongly feelling that nonexistence would be preferable. Yes. I feel like that pretty much most of the time. It is only a sense of duty and stuborness that keeps me going. And laughing at myself, and life. Which provides some respite from the utter futility of existence.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Fisticuffs wrote:
not a sign of a psychiatric disorder.
:rolleyes: Each and every one of those is a sign of psychiatric disorder. It all has to do with degree or severity. If you really know anything about this field, you'd know that.
Fisticuffs wrote:
So all teenagers are mentally ill?
I guess you don't have any teen age kids, every single on of them is nuts! :laugh: The raging hormones, the lack foresight and impulse control, all of it.
Fisticuffs wrote:
That's great if you have the capacity and the anchoring in reality to make such a decision. People with severe psychotic disorders quite often do not. How is it possible to call anything a psychotic person does a "conscious" decision if they're distorting their external reality in such a significant way?
Right, and that is why I semi specific as to which types were evil. Someone who can't tell a zebra from a chicken has no grip on reality, and they are not evil, just psychotic. Someone who can tell a person from a bag of crap, but will kick either one to get what they want for themselves, is evil, whatever the APA diagnoses is.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
If you really know anything about this field, you'd know that.
Give me a break. You're the one making armchair diagnoses and I'm willing to bet you've never even met anyone with a psychotic disorder. It's not like I'm a goddamned expert as a senior medical student spending two months seeing people who are psychotic as inpatients and outpatients but I'm not naive enough to take what people say on the internet as seriously as you seem to want to.
RichardM1 wrote:
Someone who can't tell a zebra from a chicken has no grip on reality, and they are not evil, just psychotic.
You just have so many opinions! Go publish your own DSM and make sure you include the diagnostic criteria for differentiating "evil" and "psychotic."
- F
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Yes each of those symtoms is on its own no indication of mental health issues, however the combination of all of them creates a cause for concern. its like most things in life if you fail to consider everything involved you stand a big chance of missing the problem.
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
-
Computer Based Training? or is this the old CBT(compulsary basic training) you had to pass to get to ride your bike on the road
Smile and the world smiles withyou, laugh and they think you are a nutter
-
Fisticuffs wrote:
physical exercise is fantastic for improving mood because of the endorphins produced
Yes, very true and well known.
Fisticuffs wrote:
Major depressive disorder looks like this[^].
So complete lack of interest in life, total despondancy, and strongly feelling that nonexistence would be preferable. Yes. I feel like that pretty much most of the time. It is only a sense of duty and stuborness that keeps me going. And laughing at myself, and life. Which provides some respite from the utter futility of existence.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
So complete lack of interest in life, total despondancy, and strongly feelling that nonexistence would be preferable.
Yeah, but it's less about feelings and more about if those feelings cause a fairly significant social or functional impairment to qualify for a "major depressive episode." I.e.if you don't go out, don't go to work, don't see family, don't get out of bed. It's the people who don't have strategies for dealing with bad thoughts that are really in trouble. You sound like you do have a good coping mechanism. It doesn't really sound like these feelings impair you from living your life or having interests and a job and stuff - but if you feel they are or you have any sort of oppressive thoughts about ending your life that you can't argue yourself out of and make you concerned you might act on them, then by all means go see your doc!
- F
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RichardM1 wrote:
If you really know anything about this field, you'd know that.
Give me a break. You're the one making armchair diagnoses and I'm willing to bet you've never even met anyone with a psychotic disorder. It's not like I'm a goddamned expert as a senior medical student spending two months seeing people who are psychotic as inpatients and outpatients but I'm not naive enough to take what people say on the internet as seriously as you seem to want to.
RichardM1 wrote:
Someone who can't tell a zebra from a chicken has no grip on reality, and they are not evil, just psychotic.
You just have so many opinions! Go publish your own DSM and make sure you include the diagnostic criteria for differentiating "evil" and "psychotic."
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
You're the one making armchair diagnoses
Where did I diagnose anyone with a disorder? I told CSS to seek help. I did not say he had any particular disorder.
Fisticuffs wrote:
I'm willing to bet you've never even met anyone with a psychotic disorder.
[shrug] Bet away. I just wish you were right.
Fisticuffs wrote:
I'm not naive enough to take what people say on the internet as seriously as you seem to want to.
Really? You seem to be taking what I am saying awfully seriously. :rolleyes:
Fisticuffs wrote:
make sure you include the diagnostic criteria for differentiating "evil" and "psychotic."
I did. Psychotic has to do with not having a grip on reality. Evil is about giving no worth to other people. Even a senior medical student should understand that.
Fisticuffs wrote:
It's not like I'm a goddamned expert as a senior medical student spending two months seeing people who are psychotic as inpatients and outpatients
Your right, it's not. I am not either, even though I have spent the better part of 40 years living with and 15 years trying to understand what underlies my depression, and that of my siblings and mother, of feeling what the different meds do, their side effects, and method of mitigating them. Have you watched your druggie friends burn in and become paranoid or psychotic? Had any friends involuntarily committed? Can you reel off the side effects of zoloft, lexapro and prozac? How long after starting lexapro do you start mania? When do you stop? How much buproprion can you give someone before you have to start worrying about seizures? What can you give them to up the dosage? How many labs in the US can give you buproprion metabolite blood levels? What are your alternate meds? What side effect do SSRIs give that DRIs don't? If meds give someone orgasmic dysfunction, what helps? Do you know what fat cravings feel like? Have you ever had to deal with depression? All you have is data and a little information. If you are lucky and smart, you may have some knowledge. If you have wisdom, you will learn from patients. You are just beginning. Don't be an ass by thinking you are learned.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Alex hogarth wrote:
Yes each of those symtoms is on its own no indication of mental health issues, however the combination of all of them creates a cause for concern.
No, it really, really doesn't.
- F
If you are an oncologist, you better be testing patients when you see that many signs. When you are a psych, you better be taking that level of signs seriously. Remember, you are not infallible until at least 10 years out of med school.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
fat_boy wrote:
So complete lack of interest in life, total despondancy, and strongly feelling that nonexistence would be preferable.
Yeah, but it's less about feelings and more about if those feelings cause a fairly significant social or functional impairment to qualify for a "major depressive episode." I.e.if you don't go out, don't go to work, don't see family, don't get out of bed. It's the people who don't have strategies for dealing with bad thoughts that are really in trouble. You sound like you do have a good coping mechanism. It doesn't really sound like these feelings impair you from living your life or having interests and a job and stuff - but if you feel they are or you have any sort of oppressive thoughts about ending your life that you can't argue yourself out of and make you concerned you might act on them, then by all means go see your doc!
- F
So how many signs should he display before going? It looks like you say 1. I said CSS should go when he displayed, what, 5 or 6, in concert? "however the combination of all of them creates a cause for concern." "No, it really, really doesn't." I'm glad you took seriously what fat_boy said on the internet, but don't screw other people over because you disapprove of what I say.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
fat_boy wrote:
So complete lack of interest in life, total despondancy, and strongly feelling that nonexistence would be preferable.
Yeah, but it's less about feelings and more about if those feelings cause a fairly significant social or functional impairment to qualify for a "major depressive episode." I.e.if you don't go out, don't go to work, don't see family, don't get out of bed. It's the people who don't have strategies for dealing with bad thoughts that are really in trouble. You sound like you do have a good coping mechanism. It doesn't really sound like these feelings impair you from living your life or having interests and a job and stuff - but if you feel they are or you have any sort of oppressive thoughts about ending your life that you can't argue yourself out of and make you concerned you might act on them, then by all means go see your doc!
- F
Fisticuffs wrote:
You sound like you do have a good coping mechanism.
I find that one has to make the effort to really understand oneaself, and what makes one tick. I wont say its easy, but a certain recklessness with ones feelings is IMO important. (Think treating fear of spiders be continuous exposure to spiders). ie the more fear one feels, the more one is close to pushing back a boundary. Feel the fear and do it anyway! You might think that fear is not related to depression, but I think depression stems from a fear of NOT being able to handle life. SAcared of flying? THen fly. Scared of living? Then live. I had some long epidodes of anxiety attacks. SO I got a job as a salesman. APart form being fairly crap at selling and hating, it was actually one of my best moves. It actually did get myself out of myself. I dont know if you can understand where I am coming from. Perhaps you see things differently, probably you tick differently and you have found your own way round issues, but if I was ever standiong on the edge of the bridge about to jump, I would not be able to help a little part of my brain fro saying "Oh, just think of all the things you could do now you have thrown away the rule book". Hell, I would import drugs, hire a fast car, bum around the world. Once one has accepted death, whats the worst that can happen? So get out there and have some fun!
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Fisticuffs wrote:
You're the one making armchair diagnoses
Where did I diagnose anyone with a disorder? I told CSS to seek help. I did not say he had any particular disorder.
Fisticuffs wrote:
I'm willing to bet you've never even met anyone with a psychotic disorder.
[shrug] Bet away. I just wish you were right.
Fisticuffs wrote:
I'm not naive enough to take what people say on the internet as seriously as you seem to want to.
Really? You seem to be taking what I am saying awfully seriously. :rolleyes:
Fisticuffs wrote:
make sure you include the diagnostic criteria for differentiating "evil" and "psychotic."
I did. Psychotic has to do with not having a grip on reality. Evil is about giving no worth to other people. Even a senior medical student should understand that.
Fisticuffs wrote:
It's not like I'm a goddamned expert as a senior medical student spending two months seeing people who are psychotic as inpatients and outpatients
Your right, it's not. I am not either, even though I have spent the better part of 40 years living with and 15 years trying to understand what underlies my depression, and that of my siblings and mother, of feeling what the different meds do, their side effects, and method of mitigating them. Have you watched your druggie friends burn in and become paranoid or psychotic? Had any friends involuntarily committed? Can you reel off the side effects of zoloft, lexapro and prozac? How long after starting lexapro do you start mania? When do you stop? How much buproprion can you give someone before you have to start worrying about seizures? What can you give them to up the dosage? How many labs in the US can give you buproprion metabolite blood levels? What are your alternate meds? What side effect do SSRIs give that DRIs don't? If meds give someone orgasmic dysfunction, what helps? Do you know what fat cravings feel like? Have you ever had to deal with depression? All you have is data and a little information. If you are lucky and smart, you may have some knowledge. If you have wisdom, you will learn from patients. You are just beginning. Don't be an ass by thinking you are learned.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
Where did I diagnose anyone with a disorder? I told CSS to seek help. I did not say he had any particular disorder.
Which is just so absolutely lazy. If you're that convinced he needs help, shouldn't you have at least SOME idea of what's wrong with him?
RichardM1 wrote:
Psychotic has to do with not having a grip on reality. Evil is about giving no worth to other people.
The point is that both of what you say can be caused by structural or chemical changes to the brain.
RichardM1 wrote:
I am not either, even though I have spent the better part of 40 years living with and 15 years trying to understand what underlies my depression
Bingo. And you (like sooo many others) think that your personal experience is better than calculated objective study of disease processes. Which leads to you validating your own experiences and calling people "evil" when they have a disease you simply don't understand.
- F
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If you are an oncologist, you better be testing patients when you see that many signs. When you are a psych, you better be taking that level of signs seriously. Remember, you are not infallible until at least 10 years out of med school.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
You think I or anyone is supposed to take your opinion seriously when (and I wasn't even going to bring this up at first) you clearly don't even know or understand your own diagnosis? You say you have "depression and mild bipolar" but that's crap - you EITHER have bipolar (type II because you would probably know it if you were genuinely manic) or [unipolar] major depressive disorder. Under current (and by current I mean goes back 20-30 years) diagnostic criteria the two don't coexist. So let me ask you this: if you can't even accurately portray your own disease that you have the MOST experience with what gives you the cohones to think you should be taken seriously about anything else that you have never actually witnessed?
- F