Most overated book of all time: Sun Tzu's The Art of War
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
Read it a while back, but don't remember much of anything from it. I can, however, highly recommend Godel, Escher, Bach. That book is extremely not overrated.
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
On first perusal, it reads like a series of introductory chapters to use cases which he forgot to include, but if you look deeply into every word he says (in a good translation), then you realise that it's exactly what it says on the label: War defined as art. It's brush strokes: some broad, some narrow, some in remarkably fine detail, some just to fill empty space. Read it as if it were poetry, and you'll probably be blown away.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
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see Newton, cat door, Electric Monk.
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.Be gentle when inserting the dirk.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Be gentle when inserting the dirk.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Unless she asks... wait, how did I get here?
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.By following the wrong car?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
Honestly, I didn't know that this version of the Strategikon existed, so I'm happy you posted this. I think I'll put it on my 'get this' list. Is there a similar translation of Taktika that you are aware of?
_____________________________ _____________________________ It is better to hack the code than to curse the darkness.
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
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By following the wrong car?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It's never the wrong car as such. :D
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.Weird day, today. Discussing both the brilliance of Adams and the crappiness of Tolkien, but in different threads.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Several years ago I had a job as a security gaurd and lets just say this gave me LOTS of time read and I like reading history, science and technology books. Anyway it has always amazed me that Sun Tzu's book gets so much attention and praise (I recently noticed the history channel has a series based on his book). My problem with the book isn't that the advise is necisarily wrong it's that all the advice is vague and obvious. It's so vague that even after reading the book I still have almost no clue what a chinese army of that era would have looked like. From the very few details in the book it's also obvious that he wasn't talking about or inventing guerilla warfare and it's even more obvious that he wasn't talking about how to win in business. Although his advice is so vague that it can apply to almost anything. Personlly I liked the book Stategikonhttp://www.amazon.com/Maurices-Strategikon-Handbook-Byzantine-Military/dp/0812217721/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271823050&sr=1-1[^] by the Byzantine Emporer/General much better because it's loaded with all sorts of historical and tactical details. Anybody else have an opinion on this? ps There's no particular point to this post. Sometimes it's just fun to debate stuff. :-D
Most of the stuff is obvious TODAY because of this book. At the time it was not so, and in writing these things it made them better known. The book details unconventional warfare tactics. Overloading a side, using terrain to bolster a side or dictate the enemies' actions, and attack tactics are all in there. The fact that you won't know what an army of the time looked like is a good thing. It means this can be used in almost any formation. Hell, I read the book, picked up a Tau army for Warhammer 40K and proceeded to use the tactics to good effect. If a book can give you a good idea for how to use terrain, conserve strength and how to strike, it is probably a good book to learn for warfare.
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Weird day, today. Discussing both the brilliance of Adams and the crappiness of Tolkien, but in different threads.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
They are close to each other :) I'd give Tolkien that he created a consistent (and apparently fascinating) world, and that he achieved what he wanted to - show this world with the fragmentation typical of historic documents (though that's not a prime theme in LOTR). Also, there is still the possibility of a setting that is just perfect for the trilogy. Suhc as bein stranded on a barren, boring island.
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server. -
Read it a while back, but don't remember much of anything from it. I can, however, highly recommend Godel, Escher, Bach. That book is extremely not overrated.
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Read it a while back, but don't remember much of anything from it. I can, however, highly recommend Godel, Escher, Bach. That book is extremely not overrated.
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Honestly, I didn't know that this version of the Strategikon existed, so I'm happy you posted this. I think I'll put it on my 'get this' list. Is there a similar translation of Taktika that you are aware of?
_____________________________ _____________________________ It is better to hack the code than to curse the darkness.
I didn't know there was another translation of Strategikon or do you know Latin or Greek (whatever it was written in originally)? I've heard of Taktika but never read it. Checked gutenberg.net and no luck but I found this on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Taktika-Leo-Dumbarton-Oaks-Texts/dp/0884023591/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271867821&sr=1-1[^]
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Most of the stuff is obvious TODAY because of this book. At the time it was not so, and in writing these things it made them better known. The book details unconventional warfare tactics. Overloading a side, using terrain to bolster a side or dictate the enemies' actions, and attack tactics are all in there. The fact that you won't know what an army of the time looked like is a good thing. It means this can be used in almost any formation. Hell, I read the book, picked up a Tau army for Warhammer 40K and proceeded to use the tactics to good effect. If a book can give you a good idea for how to use terrain, conserve strength and how to strike, it is probably a good book to learn for warfare.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Most of the stuff is obvious TODAY because of this book. At the time it was not so, and in writing these things it made them better known.
While I agree that many things seem obvious in hindsight I have disagree this time. Every civilization seems to have arrived at the same basic conclusions and strategies independantly. Even in the first battle ever recorded in detail the battle of Kadesh they clearly understood many if not all of his basic ideas. And I doubt Maurice knew anything about Sun Tzu and yet his book doesn't even bother explicitly stating many of the things that Sun Tzu says but instead goes strait to how best to acheive the objectives because he clearly assumes you already know the importance of things like secrecy/disinformation ect... .
ragnaroknrol wrote:
The book details unconventional warfare tactics. Overloading a side, using terrain to bolster a side or dictate the enemies' actions, and attack tactics are all in there.
I'm not sure what's unconventional about that, hasn't every half way competent general in history done that.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Hell, I read the book, picked up a Tau army for Warhammer 40K and proceeded to use the tactics to good effect. If a book can give you a good idea for how to use terrain, conserve strength and how to strike, it is probably a good book to learn for warfare.
Never played that game, I'll have to check it out :)
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I didn't know there was another translation of Strategikon or do you know Latin or Greek (whatever it was written in originally)? I've heard of Taktika but never read it. Checked gutenberg.net and no luck but I found this on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Taktika-Leo-Dumbarton-Oaks-Texts/dp/0884023591/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271867821&sr=1-1[^]
No, it's all greek to me. :laugh: Thanks for finding that one as well. I think Leo's is the more definitive Taktika since Ourano's is supposedly more derivative. But I don't have that first or second hand. A friend told me about the two of them years ago but I never ran into either and had kind of stopped looking. This one came from the same conversation which I also haven't seen a copy of: http://www.amazon.com/Rommel-His-Greenhill-Military-Paperbacks/dp/1853675431/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271879624&sr=1-1[^] The discussion was about great books of military strategy. Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Vegetius, Napoleon's Maxims, Jomini's Art of War, Hart, and du Picq's Battle Studies. I guess what one might call 'the standards'. My own library tends away from the great works and toward logistics and non-traditional war, since that's where my personal bent wanders. Van Crevald's Supplying War, and similar items. And Luttwik's Coup d'etat. Eclectic in choice. He didn't have copies of Strategikon or Taktika and all I ever found were books by other military authors who had used Strategicon in the title but were their own thoughts.
_____________________________ _____________________________ It is better to hack the code than to curse the darkness.
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I've only got about 50 pages to go, and can't even remember 10 pages back. ;P