concealed weapons
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
Oh wait, any society that wants to not devolve into anarchy.
If police are the only thing holding back anarchy society has bigger problems than I thought. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go buy more canned foods and shotguns.
It would take a while. ;) They mainly help by removing some of the worst elements when they do their jobs right.
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if its aliens i opt for a cold, yes a common cold come on people i've watched war of the worlds !!! :laugh:
ah, low tech biological warfare. Good choice!
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
Would you be showing up and requesting to join the military to defend your country from a foreign invader?
The thing is though, they will be used against the American people. They will be making sure everybody goes through the checkpoints, obeys curfew, and military dictatorship. You would be forced to work for crumbs and you would go to prison for saying anything unapproved.
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HAHAHAHAHA Hey stupid, I enlisted at 17. How about you? Considering I am the one here that has a track record of being in the military during a time of war and you don't, throwing stones in your glass house is kinda stupid. I may be old and out of shape, but I could easily take a target out with an M-16A3 at a few hundred yards. How about you coward? Would you be showing up and requesting to join the military to defend your country from a foreign invader? And, more importantly, would you want a particle beam, or ballistic weapon against the aliens? I hear they often overlook low tech attacks, like stormtroopers and ewok sticks...
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Would you be showing up and requesting to join the military to defend your country from a foreign invader?
Oh, come on. Captain Coprophilia won't even turn out for a Tea Party to defend his country from taxation!
Bob Emmett CSS: I don't intend to be a technical writing, I intend to be a software engineer.
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I have to say the gun rights and the justifications for having or banning/controling them fascinate me. For every episode of concealed weapons I can find an accidental shooting. Case in point for the midwest and roughly the center of the US. http://www.omaha.com/article/20100429/NEWS01/704299847[^] Then the accidental shooting. http://www.ketv.com/news/23265294/detail.html[^] Now both are used as examples of defending gun rights and banning gun rights. I'm not much for statistics since those who create them tend to only find the ones that justifies their point of view and not look for the truth, but then again that's just my opinion.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
In America, it's a part of the national religion. You can't discuss it using reason, it just doesn't work. They are so brainwashed that common sense just does not enter into it. I've had many discussions on the topic in the soapbox and I've decided it's a form of selective blindness. I read a book by Michael Shermer called 'what smart people believe dumb things', but, because he's American, he didn't have a chapter on why a country with third world like levels of gun deaths think that guns make them safer than countries like Australia, where we have less and less guns, and a lot less deaths per capita than they do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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They fascinate you? :wtf: They should anger you, nobody has a right to disarm lawful citizens. People have life, property, family, and their freedom to protect. The police ain't there to come rescue you when someone breaks into your home at night, they aren't comic superheroes. It takes about 10 minutes for the police to arrive, sometimes longer because the police cars are somewhere far away and are stuck in traffic, and other police activities. Get real man, you are in a fantasy land if you think your society is safe without lawful citizen's guns.
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When I said 'ignorant' below, I was actually envisaging finding an idiotic post like this from you when I scanned the other posts afterwards. Thanks for proving me right.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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In America, it's a part of the national religion. You can't discuss it using reason, it just doesn't work. They are so brainwashed that common sense just does not enter into it. I've had many discussions on the topic in the soapbox and I've decided it's a form of selective blindness. I read a book by Michael Shermer called 'what smart people believe dumb things', but, because he's American, he didn't have a chapter on why a country with third world like levels of gun deaths think that guns make them safer than countries like Australia, where we have less and less guns, and a lot less deaths per capita than they do.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
less and less guns, and a lot less deaths per capita than they do.
We've talked guns before and don't really need to rehash our positions on them. But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate. I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc. I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
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Christian Graus wrote:
less and less guns, and a lot less deaths per capita than they do.
We've talked guns before and don't really need to rehash our positions on them. But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate. I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc. I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
thrakazog wrote:
But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate.
Most people who discuss this with me, suggest that by claiming htat I am less safe than them. CSS did it above.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc.
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves. I am also a firm believer that military grade weaponry belongs in the military, not in the hands of people. There is no reason you would need to send 3 rounds downrange at anything in less than a second, have tracer rounds, or cut through body armor like butter. It may be weird to have this atitude, but a lot of former military folks do.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves.
Too me this seems misguided. If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time. Then there's the issue that the more guns that are floating around, even for "legitimate" reasons, increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
Steve
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You would think otherwise when you see foreign troops on the streets setting up checkpoints and roadblocks. Even if our military wasn't overseas and about to go to Iran and we weren't totally bankrupt, wouldn't you want to stand up and fight as your city and country is being destroyed by foreign troops?
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That's laughable - bring on the guns in case you need to defend your country from foreign invaders. These same guns are killing your own citizens and I don't see the U.S. being invaded.
Steve
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves.
Too me this seems misguided. If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time. Then there's the issue that the more guns that are floating around, even for "legitimate" reasons, increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
Steve
You are a hater of humans, so therefor humans are stupid and pathetic, therefor they are not permitted to defend themselves, they are to be subjects, and they are to serve their masters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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thrakazog wrote:
But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate.
Most people who discuss this with me, suggest that by claiming htat I am less safe than them. CSS did it above.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc.
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
To add to this, it's also largely ignored or dismissed that access to firearms is a profound risk factor for completed suicide. N Engl J Med. 2008 Sep 4;359(10):989-91. Guns and suicide in the United States. Miller M, Hemenway D. Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, USA. Three additional findings from the case–control studies are worth noting. The higher risk of suicide in homes with firearms applies not only to the gun owner but also to the gun owner's spouse and children. The presence of a gun in the home, no matter how the gun is stored, is a risk factor for completed suicide. and The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. ... The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. and Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2 Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. ... more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often. are some choice tidbits. Owning a gun is a risk-benefit scenario as the article above points out but I h
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Christian Graus wrote:
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
To add to this, it's also largely ignored or dismissed that access to firearms is a profound risk factor for completed suicide. N Engl J Med. 2008 Sep 4;359(10):989-91. Guns and suicide in the United States. Miller M, Hemenway D. Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, USA. Three additional findings from the case–control studies are worth noting. The higher risk of suicide in homes with firearms applies not only to the gun owner but also to the gun owner's spouse and children. The presence of a gun in the home, no matter how the gun is stored, is a risk factor for completed suicide. and The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. ... The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. and Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2 Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. ... more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often. are some choice tidbits. Owning a gun is a risk-benefit scenario as the article above points out but I h
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide.
Perhaps this is a factor, but not every suicide is on these drugs.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Well, what do you expect ? Do you want to take away their freedom to eat what they want, demand the drugs they want of thier doctors, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide.
Perhaps this is a factor, but not every suicide is on these drugs.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Well, what do you expect ? Do you want to take away their freedom to eat what they want, demand the drugs they want of thier doctors, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, what do you expect ?
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems, and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
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You are a hater of humans, so therefor humans are stupid and pathetic, therefor they are not permitted to defend themselves, they are to be subjects, and they are to serve their masters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a hater of humans
Haters of humans and human nature are more likely to be pro-gun. You seem to be jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Instead of getting all excited:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a hater of humans
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
not permitted to defend themselves
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
they are to be subjects
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
serve their masters
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
humans are stupid and pathetic,
why not argue the point, which is this. The guns are causing more problems than they're solving! You just need to look at the deaths by firearms statistics in your country to see that. It would be nice to live in fairy land where guns never fall into the wrong hands, but we live in the real world. Compare how many foreign invasions have been fought off to the numerous less desirable consequences of the right to bear arms.
Steve
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On numerous occasions I've had people justify concealed weapons or the right to have guns with crime control. Never have I heard them address issues of accidental shootings other than to dismiss them without much reason. This is only based on conversations I've had with both gun control people and pro gun people. This isn't a statistical discussion, but an observation.
RichardM1 wrote:
Show me the accidental shooting statistics that approach that.
I don't need to because that's not what the discussion is about. Opposing views is what I'm getting at and how people clash by them.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:16 PM
wolfbinary wrote:
On numerous occasions I've had people justify concealed weapons or the right to have guns with crime control. Never have I heard them address issues of accidental shootings other than to dismiss them without much reason.
wolfbinary wrote:
I don't need to because that's not what the discussion is about. Opposing views is what I'm getting at and how people clash by them.
That is true. You have a totally unbiased presentation here. That is why you presented a case where you show that people justifying concealed weapons don't address the issues you think should be. When I was looking for statistics, I found only one person accidentally killed by someone with a permit, over the space of years, I have heard of many more cases of people rescued from harm because of people with a permit (and a gun). So, if that is true, are you willing to put it the other way? You are a gun controller who is willing to make a big deal about concealed gun carry safety issues, and to dismiss crime prevention statistics without much reason.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves.
Too me this seems misguided. If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time. Then there's the issue that the more guns that are floating around, even for "legitimate" reasons, increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
Steve
Hey, I'm not on CSS's side.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time.
Look up statistics on the use of legally concealed weapons for crimes, all crimes, not just fight escalating to fire fight. It does not happen "all the time". It almost never happens. Except in the Hollywood version of reality. You like a lot of action movies, Steve?
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: The wrong hands already have them. It's getting them into the right hands that counts.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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thrakazog wrote:
But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate.
Most people who discuss this with me, suggest that by claiming htat I am less safe than them. CSS did it above.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc.
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
Christian, you prattle on about how messed up America is, ALL the time. Clean up your own country, then come back. What? Really? Nothing bad ever happens in Oz and NZ? Why what an amazing place to live. :rolleyes: Extol that upside down place's virtues instead of whining about the US, OK?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
And the real cause of flue deaths is the vaccine. And the real cause of automobile deaths is seat belts and air bags. And the real cause of cancer deaths is chemo. Do you have any idea why the chance of suicide goes up during the initial period of use?
Opacity, the new Transparency.