CG: deliver proof of god existence please?
-
I do not believe in a god per se, but I accept the existance of god as a concept used by some people to base their value judgments and morals on. But society could do this without the belief of a divine being. Society passes laws to protect its people, these laws come from man not god. Did the bible mention Drink Driving or Drug Possession? Did the bible say paedophilia was wrong? No. The bible did say that you should let your wife and daughter be raped by a crowd of men rather than let a male guest be sodomised, and it does say that you should not maltreat your slaves or beat them without good reason. I think we live in a world better lawed by man than by religious books.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Before the modern bible many Greeks, and latter Romans, followed the Stoicism philosophy. It emphasized thinking and moral virtues, without need for belief in a higher being. Many of the teachings found in the bible appear to come straight out of that philosophy. Therefore, it is not only possible to lead a moral life, without religion, it is not uncommon today or in the past. I first learned about Stoicism, years ago, when a friend said I was a Stoic; after I explained to him that I did not know if God existed, but that it was not necessary to be a good person that knows the difference between right and wrong. Commandments: Murder, Stealing, Lying, etc. are all bad – Well no kidding, I never would have realized that on my own. ;) INTP "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." - Edsger Dijkstra "I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks. " - Daniel Boone
-
That's a very loaded statement, and I think it's unfair of you to target CG because he's a committed Christian. There are many things that are accepted without proof of existence, but we do not target those who avow to them. For instance, many reputable scientists accept the Higgs-Boson as a reality, but there is no proof it exists. Do you issue this challenge to them as well? Question: Why does his belief system offend you so much? In all the time I've known Christian, I've never known him to ram it down others throats, so why worry about it?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
The Higgs-boson is a different case, if it exists it could provide the mechanism for electroweak symmetry breaking, which is an observed phenomenon. The existence of god would not fix the laws of nature. The existence of the Higgs-boson is also not stated as a fact, but as "probable" and people are trying very hard to prove or disprove the theory - unlike religion, which just states that god exists and that's the end of it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Question: Why does his belief system offend you so much? In all the time I've known Christian, I've never known him to ram it down others throats, so why worry about it?
Religion offends me, Christian is alright, merely misguided :)
-
The Higgs-boson is a different case, if it exists it could provide the mechanism for electroweak symmetry breaking, which is an observed phenomenon. The existence of god would not fix the laws of nature. The existence of the Higgs-boson is also not stated as a fact, but as "probable" and people are trying very hard to prove or disprove the theory - unlike religion, which just states that god exists and that's the end of it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Question: Why does his belief system offend you so much? In all the time I've known Christian, I've never known him to ram it down others throats, so why worry about it?
Religion offends me, Christian is alright, merely misguided :)
harold aptroot wrote:
unlike religion, which just states that god exists and that's the end of it.
But that's not true. People have been trying for centuries to prove that their version of God is better than everybody elses; often with pointed results.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
-
harold aptroot wrote:
unlike religion, which just states that god exists and that's the end of it.
But that's not true. People have been trying for centuries to prove that their version of God is better than everybody elses; often with pointed results.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
-
They have so far failed to prove anything except that they're stupid, yet they cling to their precious beliefs.
harold aptroot wrote:
They have so far failed to prove anything except that they're stupid, yet they cling to their precious beliefs.
Statements like that are the reason discussions of this sort end up badly. That was totally out of line. You have no more 'proof' on the non-existence of a god than believers have of it's existence. It's one thing to be a non-believer, as I am; it's quite another to insult someone else for believing differently. Very poor form. :thumbsdown:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
-
harold aptroot wrote:
They have so far failed to prove anything except that they're stupid, yet they cling to their precious beliefs.
Statements like that are the reason discussions of this sort end up badly. That was totally out of line. You have no more 'proof' on the non-existence of a god than believers have of it's existence. It's one thing to be a non-believer, as I am; it's quite another to insult someone else for believing differently. Very poor form. :thumbsdown:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
-
harold aptroot wrote:
They have so far failed to prove anything except that they're stupid, yet they cling to their precious beliefs.
Statements like that are the reason discussions of this sort end up badly. That was totally out of line. You have no more 'proof' on the non-existence of a god than believers have of it's existence. It's one thing to be a non-believer, as I am; it's quite another to insult someone else for believing differently. Very poor form. :thumbsdown:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
I have a better plan, instead of insulting believers (which appears to be ineffective) I'll just 1-vote them and hope they go away. That's a better plan because while my discussion with CG started out alright, it just got boring when the quicksands of "offering proof to the willing individual"-arguments were reached.
-
I have a better plan, instead of insulting believers (which appears to be ineffective) I'll just 1-vote them and hope they go away. That's a better plan because while my discussion with CG started out alright, it just got boring when the quicksands of "offering proof to the willing individual"-arguments were reached.
-
The fact that Hitler did what he did proves there isnt a god. Or the Serbs, or Stalin, or the English in Ireland. Or pol pot. Fact is believing in god weakens man. It deludes him intio believing he is looked after. He isnt. The sooner people realise it is up to them to create a better life on earth the sooner we will get on and do it.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
So you believe the existence of evil proves there is no good? Fact is, believing in a Mom weakens man. It deludes him into believing he is looked after. Christianity teaches me that, while God may touch the world super naturally, in most cases He wants people to do it. So, knowing what I do, I try and make it a better place.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
The Higgs-boson is a different case, if it exists it could provide the mechanism for electroweak symmetry breaking, which is an observed phenomenon. The existence of god would not fix the laws of nature. The existence of the Higgs-boson is also not stated as a fact, but as "probable" and people are trying very hard to prove or disprove the theory - unlike religion, which just states that god exists and that's the end of it.
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
Question: Why does his belief system offend you so much? In all the time I've known Christian, I've never known him to ram it down others throats, so why worry about it?
Religion offends me, Christian is alright, merely misguided :)
harold aptroot wrote:
The existence of god would not fix the laws of nature.
Neither would the Higgs boson. It just gives us more confidence in our approximation of the laws. Actually, what about the laws needs to be fixed? And what created them, in the first place? And why are they the way they are? If you have no proof, but have beliefs, I hope you don't take a bite out of your own ass. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
I think Occam's Razor applies
Maybe it does. I was actually steering towards this being an other case of "something that merely lacks a proper explanation - for now" One god may be simpler than several, but.. Whatever explanation there may be for "Speaking in Tongues", I wouldn't care much if people called it god by definition. But then that same god would probably not be responsible for anything else. Or maybe it would. We'll see.
Christian Graus wrote:
The Bible says so
CSS could write a book, that could grow into a religion as well.. And how about this. For a couple of hundred of thousands of years there had only been humans who, if they believed in any higher being at all, didn't believe in the god you believe in. Why was "the real god" suddenly found about 2k years ago? Is this again a case of god being illogical merely because I think he is? Or is it actually (partly) the same god? edit: /thread. I lost interest.
modified on Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:08 PM
harold aptroot wrote:
Why was "the real god" suddenly found about 2k years ago?
Where do you get this? Is that Jesus? Concurrent documentation of God goes much further back than that. We only started discussing and documenting plate tectonics in the last hundred years or so, but it was there the whole time. While the Bible does not give details, it does document to the creation of the universe. Argument abounds as to how long ago that was, but whatever the value, it goes back to it.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
harold aptroot wrote:
Why was "the real god" suddenly found about 2k years ago?
Where do you get this? Is that Jesus? Concurrent documentation of God goes much further back than that. We only started discussing and documenting plate tectonics in the last hundred years or so, but it was there the whole time. While the Bible does not give details, it does document to the creation of the universe. Argument abounds as to how long ago that was, but whatever the value, it goes back to it.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
So maybe 5k years. Whenever those stories were first made up. It doesn't matter when it was exactly, it wasn't 400k years ago so there is still a huge period of time where there were people but no god (or different gods). However, the first part (the creation) is all a lie anyway, and for that there is proof. Like C14 dating, and the light coming from distant stars that are older than the bible claims. It got the time scale all wrong, but the order is pretty much OK. edit: oh and, /thread. Darn. You tricked me.
-
Before the modern bible many Greeks, and latter Romans, followed the Stoicism philosophy. It emphasized thinking and moral virtues, without need for belief in a higher being. Many of the teachings found in the bible appear to come straight out of that philosophy. Therefore, it is not only possible to lead a moral life, without religion, it is not uncommon today or in the past. I first learned about Stoicism, years ago, when a friend said I was a Stoic; after I explained to him that I did not know if God existed, but that it was not necessary to be a good person that knows the difference between right and wrong. Commandments: Murder, Stealing, Lying, etc. are all bad – Well no kidding, I never would have realized that on my own. ;) INTP "Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." - Edsger Dijkstra "I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks. " - Daniel Boone
I had a recent conversation with a Seventh Day Adventist who talked as if the 10 commandments must have been given to Adam and Eve, b/c how else could they have known that murder was wrong ? Every society understands the same moral principles, including ones who could have never previously had access to the Bible. Anyone who suggests that only a Christian can have morality is plainly very wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
That's a very loaded statement, and I think it's unfair of you to target CG because he's a committed Christian. There are many things that are accepted without proof of existence, but we do not target those who avow to them. For instance, many reputable scientists accept the Higgs-Boson as a reality, but there is no proof it exists. Do you issue this challenge to them as well? Question: Why does his belief system offend you so much? In all the time I've known Christian, I've never known him to ram it down others throats, so why worry about it?
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
*grin* this started in the lounge and I said that if he wanted more specifics, the lounge was the wrong place for it. So, it wasn't a random shoutout, he named me b/c I'd invited him to ask.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
In the Bible
Starting from that premise made me wary, I'm afraid. If your belief in God is based in part on the legends of nomadic herdsmen from 3000 years ago, then I don't understand how you can also discount the truth of Buddhist, Islamic, Hindu, Jain, Norse, Greek, Roman, Native American, Aborigine, Aztec, Inca, Maya, Olmec, Celtic or any other religious myths.
Well, if there's no starting point, then we're just making God up. I guess you think I'm doing that anyhow, and that's your call to make, but, if I have a 'revelation' and there's no book or other reference to back me up, then it's plain I am not accountable to anything but my imagination.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
The fact that Hitler did what he did proves there isnt a god. Or the Serbs, or Stalin, or the English in Ireland. Or pol pot. Fact is believing in god weakens man. It deludes him intio believing he is looked after. He isnt. The sooner people realise it is up to them to create a better life on earth the sooner we will get on and do it.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
The fact that Hitler did what he did proves there isnt a god. Or the Serbs, or Stalin, or the English in Ireland. Or pol pot.
No, it proves free will, AND that there isn't the God that you'd like there to be. But, if there WAS a God who constrained our actions, and forced us to live a certain way, you'd probably not like that, either.
fat_boy wrote:
Fact is believing in god weakens man. It deludes him intio believing he is looked after. He isnt. The sooner people realise it is up to them to create a better life on earth the sooner we will get on and do it.
I would agree that some people are happy to destroy the earth because they think God will fix it. I don't think that's a correct way of looking at things. But hey, there's nothing wrong with the earth anyhow, right ? :P
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
Well, if there's no starting point, then we're just making God up. I guess you think I'm doing that anyhow, and that's your call to make, but, if I have a 'revelation' and there's no book or other reference to back me up, then it's plain I am not accountable to anything but my imagination.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, if there's no starting point, then we're just making God up. I guess you think I'm doing that anyhow, and that's your call to make, but, if I have a 'revelation' and there's no book or other reference to back me up, then it's plain I am not accountable to anything but my imagination.
I do think so. I think all "revelations" are personal, and that the Biblical myths upon which you are building your belief were also personal, to the people who originally made them up. It is personal "revelation" built upon personal "revelation", with no basis in a common deity. If you base the existence on God on the Bible, and as God exists the Bible must be true, you have a circular argument. Unless God's existence is verifiable by someone who doesn't believe in Him, then all the writings in the world can't back up your claim that he exists.
-
I had a recent conversation with a Seventh Day Adventist who talked as if the 10 commandments must have been given to Adam and Eve, b/c how else could they have known that murder was wrong ? Every society understands the same moral principles, including ones who could have never previously had access to the Bible. Anyone who suggests that only a Christian can have morality is plainly very wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Anyone who suggests that only a Christian can have morality is plainly very wrong.
Thanks for saying that. I've seen too many posts from right-wing fundie Christians (which I know you aren't!) in the US implying that atheists have no moral guidance to prevent them murdering, which is plainly stupid.
-
So maybe 5k years. Whenever those stories were first made up. It doesn't matter when it was exactly, it wasn't 400k years ago so there is still a huge period of time where there were people but no god (or different gods). However, the first part (the creation) is all a lie anyway, and for that there is proof. Like C14 dating, and the light coming from distant stars that are older than the bible claims. It got the time scale all wrong, but the order is pretty much OK. edit: oh and, /thread. Darn. You tricked me.
harold aptroot wrote:
Whenever those stories were first made up.
Written down. Made up is judgement on something you can not prove.
harold aptroot wrote:
it wasn't 400k years ago so there is still a huge period of time where there were people but no god (or different gods).
Again, you are mixing up when they were written down with when they either happened or were created. You have no proof of when it happened, only the latest date it could have, anything else is no more than a matter of faith to you.
harold aptroot wrote:
However, the first part (the creation) is all a lie anyway, and for that there is proof. Like C14 dating, and the light coming from distant stars that are older than the bible claims. It got the time scale all wrong, but the order is pretty much OK.
If you are a strict creationist, I agree. But God spent only a little bit of time describing it, and did not go to much detail. If He had hard described the mechanism that led to the Big Bang, I doubt it would have remained in the Bible in a decipherable manner, and God is smart enough to know that. The time scale thing is BS, and I'm not pointing it at you, but at the people who propagate it. If you go through the steps, the only part of the description that doesn't match is that the plants are created before the sun ignites. While it is possible, I don't understand it.
Opacity, the new Transparency.