Proving the unprovable
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
True... As the saying goes... Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the other hand, just because something can't be disproved, doesn't mean it deserves equal credibility. For example, I could challenge you to prove that I DON'T have supernatural powers over time and space, which I've so far decided not to use. You can't prove or disprove it, but I think it's pretty sensible to hold the opinion that it's probably a complete fabrication.
I want to agree with you but I can't. Whether or not an argument is credible is neither her nor there. The fact is I can't disprove your assertion. I do agree, however, that I would consider you to be a raving lunatic requiring extensive treatment. I might, therefore, dismiss you as a loony but I can't, absolutely, disprove your claim.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I've heard that argument before, but not often. Maybe I just surround myself with more intelligent people (Both religious and non-religious), but I've never really had a problem with people looking down at me for being atheist.
Every committed religious person I've had personal contact with (intelligent or otherwise and some of them on these forums) appears to be of the opinion that simply by dint of their beliefs they are, somehow, morally superior.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
They should know when they're outgunned
Same thought as DD below.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
digital man wrote:
Every committed religious person I've had personal contact with (intelligent or otherwise and some of them on these forums) appears to be of the opinion that simply by dint of their beliefs they are, somehow, morally superior.
Maybe you are projecting your own feeling of moral inferiority back onto them? :laugh: Personally, I know I am no better than anyone else. Often worse, as I do those thing I know are wrong. But that does not mean I don't enjoy an argument about it.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Following on (sort of) from the thread below it strikes me that the argument about the existence or otherwise of a god is pointless. I can't prove the non-existence and you (whomever you might be) can't prove the reverse. You believe what you want to believe: as an atheist I promise not to try and stop you believing what you want so long as it makes you happy. On the other hand can you stop knocking on my door and bothering me with all of your god stuff. You're not going to convert me, ever. Really, you're not. And this nonsense that, somehow, because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish: I'm probably far more moral and tolerant than most of the moral majority. I just don't go around shoving it down people's throats and judging and condemning anyone simply because their chosen (and personal) lifestyle choices don't precisely match mine. So, can we stop all the god arguments (And I'm as culpable here as anyone). They go nowhere and settle nothing - it's just the same, tired old arguments every few weeks. Boring. I thank you: screaming rant over - have a jolly nice day.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
digital man wrote:
So, can we stop all the god arguments (And I'm as culpable here as anyone). They go nowhere and settle nothing - it's just the same, tired old arguments every few weeks. Boring.
I guess I haven't been paying attention. That was the first one I'd seen in a long time. But I think I agree. And that really wasn't a generic thread, methinks, so much as an attack on Christian's particular belief set. While I don't agree with him (Christian, that is), I thought the whole tone was unnecessarily confrontational, starting with the title of the topic. (But he's a grown boy - if he thought he was being unfairly treated I expect he'd say so. )
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Hammed it up with the best of them! Can you imagine John de Lancie, Alan Rickman and John Lithgow on the same cast list? More ham than a pig farm.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
John Lithgow of 3rd Rock fame? I simply loved the guy! He carried the whole show on his shoulders.
Cheers, Vikram. (Got my troika of CCCs!)
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digital man wrote:
So, can we stop all the god arguments (And I'm as culpable here as anyone). They go nowhere and settle nothing - it's just the same, tired old arguments every few weeks. Boring.
I guess I haven't been paying attention. That was the first one I'd seen in a long time. But I think I agree. And that really wasn't a generic thread, methinks, so much as an attack on Christian's particular belief set. While I don't agree with him (Christian, that is), I thought the whole tone was unnecessarily confrontational, starting with the title of the topic. (But he's a grown boy - if he thought he was being unfairly treated I expect he'd say so. )
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Heh... Indeed... I've made a solemn vow to myself... If anyone ever tries to turn my universe into a religion, I will do my best to squash that notion like a cockroach. "I'm honored that you all love my novels so much, but... you do realize that you're worshiping a figment of my imagination, right?" That'd be fun.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)You got it all wrong. There's rich. And then there's "I'm in charge of a whole fanatical cult of followers" rich. The first category makes you like a movie star in Hollywood sort of cool. The second is the guy that all the people in the first category hand over their spare cash to. If men of good moral values such as ministers can be the second, so can you! Fleece suckers, make a killing, snort coke off the tight rear end of some stripper while riding in a limo with a hot tub, and die young and of some probably avoidable incident involving an infection, car wreck, or a jealous husband. It's the American dream man!
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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You got it all wrong. There's rich. And then there's "I'm in charge of a whole fanatical cult of followers" rich. The first category makes you like a movie star in Hollywood sort of cool. The second is the guy that all the people in the first category hand over their spare cash to. If men of good moral values such as ministers can be the second, so can you! Fleece suckers, make a killing, snort coke off the tight rear end of some stripper while riding in a limo with a hot tub, and die young and of some probably avoidable incident involving an infection, car wreck, or a jealous husband. It's the American dream man!
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
Man, if that's the American dream, then I don't belong here :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Man, if that's the American dream, then I don't belong here :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)why... don't you like strippers?
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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why... don't you like strippers?
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
Actually, no, not really... Too artificial.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Following on (sort of) from the thread below it strikes me that the argument about the existence or otherwise of a god is pointless. I can't prove the non-existence and you (whomever you might be) can't prove the reverse. You believe what you want to believe: as an atheist I promise not to try and stop you believing what you want so long as it makes you happy. On the other hand can you stop knocking on my door and bothering me with all of your god stuff. You're not going to convert me, ever. Really, you're not. And this nonsense that, somehow, because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish: I'm probably far more moral and tolerant than most of the moral majority. I just don't go around shoving it down people's throats and judging and condemning anyone simply because their chosen (and personal) lifestyle choices don't precisely match mine. So, can we stop all the god arguments (And I'm as culpable here as anyone). They go nowhere and settle nothing - it's just the same, tired old arguments every few weeks. Boring. I thank you: screaming rant over - have a jolly nice day.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
digital man wrote:
I can't prove the non-existence
I thought my simplistic argument was effective.
digital man wrote:
because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish
Hear hear. I have standards too. If you dont like them I have plenty more. :) (OK, blatant Marx (thats Graucho) take off, but its a goody!)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Actually, no, not really... Too artificial.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)You need to find better strippers. :)
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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digital man wrote:
I can't prove the non-existence
I thought my simplistic argument was effective.
digital man wrote:
because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish
Hear hear. I have standards too. If you dont like them I have plenty more. :) (OK, blatant Marx (thats Graucho) take off, but its a goody!)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
I thought my simplistic argument was effective.
There could be a reason for that. :rolleyes:
fat_boy wrote:
I have standards too. If you dont like them I have plenty more.
I wasn't sure if you were talking Groucho or the ISO. But just don't knock cigar ash on the rug.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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digital man wrote:
Following on (sort of) from the thread below it strikes me that the argument about the existence or otherwise of a god is pointless. I can't prove the non-existence and you (whomever you might be) can't prove the reverse.
True... As the saying goes... Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the other hand, just because something can't be disproved, doesn't mean it deserves equal credibility. For example, I could challenge you to prove that I DON'T have supernatural powers over time and space, which I've so far decided not to use. You can't prove or disprove it, but I think it's pretty sensible to hold the opinion that it's probably a complete fabrication.
digital man wrote:
And this nonsense that, somehow, because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish: I'm probably far more moral and tolerant than most of the moral majority.
I've heard that argument before, but not often. Maybe I just surround myself with more intelligent people (Both religious and non-religious), but I've never really had a problem with people looking down at me for being atheist.
digital man wrote:
I just don't go around shoving it down people's throats and judging and condemning anyone simply because their chosen (and personal) lifestyle choices don't precisely match mine.
This is the only part of religion that bugs me. The idiots trying to stop me on the sidewalk and asking if I've found jesus, or if I've read dianetics, or if I've considered blah blah blah... People are free to believe whatever they want, but as soon as they try to convert me, they (Meaning those particular people, not the entire religion) become the enemy, and I have no qualms against giving them a mental/verbal (Not physical) thrashing. The sad part is that most of the people who try to convert me on the street know less about their own religion than I do... And I have a whole arsenal of good lines to spout when they try their little speeches on me... They should know when they're outgunned :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
The sad part is that most of the people who try to convert me on the street know less about their own religion than I do... And I have a whole arsenal of good lines to spout when they try their little speeches on me... They should know when they're outgunned
A justifiable blood sport. Leviticus is useful.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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Following on (sort of) from the thread below it strikes me that the argument about the existence or otherwise of a god is pointless. I can't prove the non-existence and you (whomever you might be) can't prove the reverse. You believe what you want to believe: as an atheist I promise not to try and stop you believing what you want so long as it makes you happy. On the other hand can you stop knocking on my door and bothering me with all of your god stuff. You're not going to convert me, ever. Really, you're not. And this nonsense that, somehow, because I'm an atheist, I can't have morals. What utter rubbish: I'm probably far more moral and tolerant than most of the moral majority. I just don't go around shoving it down people's throats and judging and condemning anyone simply because their chosen (and personal) lifestyle choices don't precisely match mine. So, can we stop all the god arguments (And I'm as culpable here as anyone). They go nowhere and settle nothing - it's just the same, tired old arguments every few weeks. Boring. I thank you: screaming rant over - have a jolly nice day.
me, me, me "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program. And if we become extinct because we don't have a space program, it'll serve us right!" Larry Niven
I agree. Why can't we simply understand as a culture that some believe and some do not and leave it at that? Have we not evolved enough to understand that we each have the right to our own opinions and reasoning, and as long as we are all willing to understand that we do not all agree on everything I think we would be much better off. Just because I happen to believe that no god exists does not preclude YOU from believing otherwise. That is, in and of it self, the essence of belief in general. My opinion does not matter to your belief. Your belief does not need to be validated by my opinion. Pure and simple. THE problem exists (and has existed throughout history causing some of the worst atrocities known to man kind) where people do not understand this concept and refuse to allow it to exist. People justify their ability to 'fight for god' (any god, no god, or really any opinion they feel strongly enough about) because they say they have the moral right to correct those that are 'wrong', to prevent the moral decay of society, and they wrap their actions around the 'just cause' of showing those people the error of their ways. It's all the same talk that I seem to remember reading about during past history like the crusades, Hitlers march across Europe, and all the others that could be referenced if I had enough time. We as a race are never going to survive until we all understand this. "I fear for mankind, for he has the strength to save himself into extinction." -Ray Cassick, 2010 Maybe I will get that put on my headstone when I die.