Speaking in 'toungues'
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
by definition I am not omniscient because I only know 99.9999999 (repeating of course) of everything
An omniscient being would know that 99.999999.... is precisely equal to 100.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
Alright. I retract my previous belief and now agree with you.
:-D :rose:
I can admit to being wrong. :)
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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Just to chime in because I am a consumate jerk...
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, that God does not play by your rules, does not prove He does not exist.
It just proves he's a jerk. ;P
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
*grin* well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's also possible that, if He is God, that the way He does things, just plain does not conform to our rules.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
since you have stated that you need to do these things if you are a true christian.
I said no such thing. You are being deliberately obtuse, and, in this case, a liar. I'll follow Jesus' example and not yours. You are saying exactly what Satan said to Jesus, and my response will not be any different. I'm not sure why I'm even playing this game with you, you're plainly not listening to me, or considering anything I say, beyond looking for ways to twist it to suit your views.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
fat_boy wrote: since you have stated that you need to do these things if you are a true christian. I said no such thing
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent? And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing? Of course if it wasnt you who chose then the three must list as equally important in which case I didnt lie. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
You are saying exactly what Satan said to Jesus
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
considering anything I say, beyond looking for ways to twist it to suit your views.
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Christian Graus wrote:
I can tell you that athiests have done so and become Christians, but I am not suggesting a cynical testing of what I'm saying will turn out the way I describe every time. Sometimes, enough faith seems to creep in for people to be willing to honestly ask God, and not just fold their arms and say 'I know you're not here'. Again, that sounds like weasel words, I know. I didn't define the system, or decide what God should require. I do know that I go to church with former athiests who came along to prove us wrong.
That reminds me of this[^], which is in my opinion a very interesting personal narrative by Nate Phelps, the son of Fred Phelps the Westboro Baptist Church idiot.
Well, that looks interesting. The Phelps are obviously all morons, and I'm interested to read what his son has to say about life in that retarded excuse for a church, when I have time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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You take that back! :suss:
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Well, that looks interesting. The Phelps are obviously all morons, and I'm interested to read what his son has to say about life in that retarded excuse for a church, when I have time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Yeah, it's fairly lengthy, but totally worth it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
fat_boy wrote: since you have stated that you need to do these things if you are a true christian. I said no such thing
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent? And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing? Of course if it wasnt you who chose then the three must list as equally important in which case I didnt lie. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
You are saying exactly what Satan said to Jesus
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
considering anything I say, beyond looking for ways to twist it to suit your views.
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent?
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it.
fat_boy wrote:
And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing?
I can't help if they are illiterate, either. That's not my fault, nor is it Gods.
fat_boy wrote:
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment!
I did not expect you to be insulted.
fat_boy wrote:
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
This is plain not true, unless the whole Bible consists of the last chapter of Mark. I explained this already.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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*grin* well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's also possible that, if He is God, that the way He does things, just plain does not conform to our rules.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
lol, no opinion, just being funny. ;) You are talking to a former Catholic, NOTHING anyone in this thread has said (except the omniscience stuff) has been new, all that impressive, or informative to me. I have heard almost all these arguments before verbatim, or at least close enough to not surprise me. Hell, I actually heard someone use the superman thing before in a debate. (He seems to be the best analogy since he is a god by the definitions of the older civilizations) You are a good guy, I have no problems with you being religious, your choice in it, or how you describe/live/defend your faith. I just like being an ass. ;)
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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fat_boy wrote:
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent?
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it.
fat_boy wrote:
And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing?
I can't help if they are illiterate, either. That's not my fault, nor is it Gods.
fat_boy wrote:
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment!
I did not expect you to be insulted.
fat_boy wrote:
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
This is plain not true, unless the whole Bible consists of the last chapter of Mark. I explained this already.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it
Where? As far as I recall I only bought up this issue three posts back, and you certainly havent explained how only one of them became the standard and the other two not. Unles you explained to someone else and are mistaking me for them.
Christian Graus wrote:
I did not expect you to be insulted.
Being non dualistic I wouldnt be! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it
Where? As far as I recall I only bought up this issue three posts back, and you certainly havent explained how only one of them became the standard and the other two not. Unles you explained to someone else and are mistaking me for them.
Christian Graus wrote:
I did not expect you to be insulted.
Being non dualistic I wouldnt be! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
It specifically says that tongues are what happens when someone becomes a Christian, and specifically tells us that promises of protection are not things we should prove by seeking danger, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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OK, you are as thick as pig shit. ;P
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Better. :-D
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fat_boy wrote:
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
It specifically says that tongues are what happens when someone becomes a Christian, and specifically tells us that promises of protection are not things we should prove by seeking danger, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
But that is kind of wimping out though. I mean, you are safe or you arent, you are speaking the language given by the holy spirit or you arent. Says God to Jesus one afternoon: "well, just to be on the safe side, lets steer clear of the snakes and shit, but since no one will ever know if they are talking rubbish or not, we'll stick with the tongues thingy OK?" Really, any semi-nipotent god could come up with the same scheme as that. Heck, even Odin probably thought about it, except of course the old gods liked us to entertain them by acts of bravery so specifically put tests in our way and rewarded courage.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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But that is kind of wimping out though. I mean, you are safe or you arent, you are speaking the language given by the holy spirit or you arent. Says God to Jesus one afternoon: "well, just to be on the safe side, lets steer clear of the snakes and shit, but since no one will ever know if they are talking rubbish or not, we'll stick with the tongues thingy OK?" Really, any semi-nipotent god could come up with the same scheme as that. Heck, even Odin probably thought about it, except of course the old gods liked us to entertain them by acts of bravery so specifically put tests in our way and rewarded courage.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
You're simply being obtuse. I refuse to play if you refuse to listen.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Then that goes back to what I said before - everything else may be deterministic, but anything is possible with regards to yourself which again means that at every instant you know that anything could happen but not what will happen.
Hmm, ok, I suppose that's internally consistent :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
You see this is where Bhudism or Zen is far molre interesting. It actually is very subtle, and very clever, and actually has something to say to people which is usefull. You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf. And that in itself is a massive essay in behaviour and thought processes that are in fact very relevant in the world. Even in SW. I have worked with engineers too attached to their coding to be good SW engineers.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf.
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants. I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
So its not supposed to be understood by anyone, is unique from one person to the next, isnt really a language, but a series of noises given to you by the holy ghost to enable you to pray effectively. And you have no idea what you are saying, or praying for when you are gibbering away?
I understand you're trying to make it sound ridiculous, but yes, you are correct in every comment you've made.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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OK, not naming names here, but it turns out there are some CP members who do. Now I have always found this hysterically funny. How supposedly grown up people can be so self delusional as to make complete idiots out of themselves by gibbering away like this is just so deeply funny. I always associated this behaviour with fairly stupid people. After all stupid peopel are easially duped, but to hear of CP members bragging about 'speaking in toungues' is almost disturbing. How can these people seriously think this is a language spoken by god? OK, so lets assume it is, has anyone got a dictionary? Can anyone trace the etymology of Sanscrit or Hebrew, or anyother ancient language back to 'toungue'? After all, we all did speak this one language way back, or so the Bible says, so any of those older languages would derrive from this common language in the way that most European languages derrive for Sanskrit. So, come on you gibbering religious types, got any proof that you arent completely bonkers? Can you provide a dictionary and if not why not? You make an audible sound, why cant it be represented by any of the 46 or so common phonemes and written down?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Totally with you on this one, F_B. I'm always stunned when otherwise seemingly intelligent people reveal some aspect of their beliefs that is so completely at odds with a reasoned view of the world. People really are amazing critters. :wtf:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Christian Graus wrote:
I understand you're trying to make it sound ridiculous, but yes, you are correct in every comment you've made.
Errrr... ummmm.... I guess I better not say it. ;P
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
*grin* as I keep saying, I didn't invent it, God did. I'm merely explaining it, and the core point is always that just because God doesn't do things our way, does not mean He is wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Except, as you've described (And correct me if I'm wrong), you can only receive this "proof" if you already believe in "god".
What he actually said was a little more obtuse than that. It wasn't so much already believing as being 'willing enough' to accept it as true. It's something akin to somebody telling you that human flight is possible, but to prove it you have to be willing enough to accept it as true that you'll fling yourself off a tall building.
Not quite correct, but there's no point in trying to point out the difference. We've already established that God offers proof ( according to me ) and that, according to you, you're free to tell me that's not true, without finding out first if it is. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I don't mind that you want to poke fun at my views. I just find it astonishing that you'd think that your response has any integrity when it plainly does not. It's more akin to me saying that the Eiffel Tower does not exist and refusing to accept a ticket to France to prove that it does.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf.
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants. I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants
you missed the capitol 'S'. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
I am sure you can, thee are many routes to the summit. Speaking in tongues is a way point on only one of them though. :)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription