Speaking in 'toungues'
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Well, that looks interesting. The Phelps are obviously all morons, and I'm interested to read what his son has to say about life in that retarded excuse for a church, when I have time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Yeah, it's fairly lengthy, but totally worth it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
fat_boy wrote: since you have stated that you need to do these things if you are a true christian. I said no such thing
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent? And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing? Of course if it wasnt you who chose then the three must list as equally important in which case I didnt lie. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
You are saying exactly what Satan said to Jesus
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
considering anything I say, beyond looking for ways to twist it to suit your views.
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent?
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it.
fat_boy wrote:
And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing?
I can't help if they are illiterate, either. That's not my fault, nor is it Gods.
fat_boy wrote:
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment!
I did not expect you to be insulted.
fat_boy wrote:
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
This is plain not true, unless the whole Bible consists of the last chapter of Mark. I explained this already.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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*grin* well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's also possible that, if He is God, that the way He does things, just plain does not conform to our rules.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
lol, no opinion, just being funny. ;) You are talking to a former Catholic, NOTHING anyone in this thread has said (except the omniscience stuff) has been new, all that impressive, or informative to me. I have heard almost all these arguments before verbatim, or at least close enough to not surprise me. Hell, I actually heard someone use the superman thing before in a debate. (He seems to be the best analogy since he is a god by the definitions of the older civilizations) You are a good guy, I have no problems with you being religious, your choice in it, or how you describe/live/defend your faith. I just like being an ass. ;)
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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fat_boy wrote:
So who gave you the right of choice out of: 1) speaking in tongues 2) handling snakes 3) drinking poison or was it by common consent?
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it.
fat_boy wrote:
And if so how about those snake handlers who have agreed that that is the true mark of a christian, and that tongue talking is nothing?
I can't help if they are illiterate, either. That's not my fault, nor is it Gods.
fat_boy wrote:
Thankyou, that is quite a compliment!
I did not expect you to be insulted.
fat_boy wrote:
I want to know how YOU decided that tonging is the true mark whereas snakes and poison are not since, it appears ayll three are equally stressed in the bible.
This is plain not true, unless the whole Bible consists of the last chapter of Mark. I explained this already.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it
Where? As far as I recall I only bought up this issue three posts back, and you certainly havent explained how only one of them became the standard and the other two not. Unles you explained to someone else and are mistaking me for them.
Christian Graus wrote:
I did not expect you to be insulted.
Being non dualistic I wouldnt be! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already. If you can't use common sense, or read what I said, then there's no point in me restating it
Where? As far as I recall I only bought up this issue three posts back, and you certainly havent explained how only one of them became the standard and the other two not. Unles you explained to someone else and are mistaking me for them.
Christian Graus wrote:
I did not expect you to be insulted.
Being non dualistic I wouldnt be! :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I explained this already
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
It specifically says that tongues are what happens when someone becomes a Christian, and specifically tells us that promises of protection are not things we should prove by seeking danger, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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OK, you are as thick as pig shit. ;P
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Better. :-D
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fat_boy wrote:
Sorry, I didnt see that, must have been explained to someone else. Does the Bible specifically say then that tonging is the true mark of a CHristian and that snakes and poison, although previously refered to, are not so important?
It specifically says that tongues are what happens when someone becomes a Christian, and specifically tells us that promises of protection are not things we should prove by seeking danger, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
But that is kind of wimping out though. I mean, you are safe or you arent, you are speaking the language given by the holy spirit or you arent. Says God to Jesus one afternoon: "well, just to be on the safe side, lets steer clear of the snakes and shit, but since no one will ever know if they are talking rubbish or not, we'll stick with the tongues thingy OK?" Really, any semi-nipotent god could come up with the same scheme as that. Heck, even Odin probably thought about it, except of course the old gods liked us to entertain them by acts of bravery so specifically put tests in our way and rewarded courage.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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But that is kind of wimping out though. I mean, you are safe or you arent, you are speaking the language given by the holy spirit or you arent. Says God to Jesus one afternoon: "well, just to be on the safe side, lets steer clear of the snakes and shit, but since no one will ever know if they are talking rubbish or not, we'll stick with the tongues thingy OK?" Really, any semi-nipotent god could come up with the same scheme as that. Heck, even Odin probably thought about it, except of course the old gods liked us to entertain them by acts of bravery so specifically put tests in our way and rewarded courage.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
You're simply being obtuse. I refuse to play if you refuse to listen.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Then that goes back to what I said before - everything else may be deterministic, but anything is possible with regards to yourself which again means that at every instant you know that anything could happen but not what will happen.
Hmm, ok, I suppose that's internally consistent :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
You see this is where Bhudism or Zen is far molre interesting. It actually is very subtle, and very clever, and actually has something to say to people which is usefull. You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf. And that in itself is a massive essay in behaviour and thought processes that are in fact very relevant in the world. Even in SW. I have worked with engineers too attached to their coding to be good SW engineers.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf.
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants. I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
So its not supposed to be understood by anyone, is unique from one person to the next, isnt really a language, but a series of noises given to you by the holy ghost to enable you to pray effectively. And you have no idea what you are saying, or praying for when you are gibbering away?
I understand you're trying to make it sound ridiculous, but yes, you are correct in every comment you've made.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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OK, not naming names here, but it turns out there are some CP members who do. Now I have always found this hysterically funny. How supposedly grown up people can be so self delusional as to make complete idiots out of themselves by gibbering away like this is just so deeply funny. I always associated this behaviour with fairly stupid people. After all stupid peopel are easially duped, but to hear of CP members bragging about 'speaking in toungues' is almost disturbing. How can these people seriously think this is a language spoken by god? OK, so lets assume it is, has anyone got a dictionary? Can anyone trace the etymology of Sanscrit or Hebrew, or anyother ancient language back to 'toungue'? After all, we all did speak this one language way back, or so the Bible says, so any of those older languages would derrive from this common language in the way that most European languages derrive for Sanskrit. So, come on you gibbering religious types, got any proof that you arent completely bonkers? Can you provide a dictionary and if not why not? You make an audible sound, why cant it be represented by any of the 46 or so common phonemes and written down?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
Totally with you on this one, F_B. I'm always stunned when otherwise seemingly intelligent people reveal some aspect of their beliefs that is so completely at odds with a reasoned view of the world. People really are amazing critters. :wtf:
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Christian Graus wrote:
I understand you're trying to make it sound ridiculous, but yes, you are correct in every comment you've made.
Errrr... ummmm.... I guess I better not say it. ;P
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
*grin* as I keep saying, I didn't invent it, God did. I'm merely explaining it, and the core point is always that just because God doesn't do things our way, does not mean He is wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Except, as you've described (And correct me if I'm wrong), you can only receive this "proof" if you already believe in "god".
What he actually said was a little more obtuse than that. It wasn't so much already believing as being 'willing enough' to accept it as true. It's something akin to somebody telling you that human flight is possible, but to prove it you have to be willing enough to accept it as true that you'll fling yourself off a tall building.
Not quite correct, but there's no point in trying to point out the difference. We've already established that God offers proof ( according to me ) and that, according to you, you're free to tell me that's not true, without finding out first if it is. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I don't mind that you want to poke fun at my views. I just find it astonishing that you'd think that your response has any integrity when it plainly does not. It's more akin to me saying that the Eiffel Tower does not exist and refusing to accept a ticket to France to prove that it does.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
You dont need to gibberish away in Zen to reach salvation, you just need to let go, become unattached, and express yourSelf.
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants. I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I am not seeking to express myself, I'm seeking to do what God wants
you missed the capitol 'S'. :)
Christian Graus wrote:
I can express myself fine without Zen or anything else.
I am sure you can, thee are many routes to the summit. Speaking in tongues is a way point on only one of them though. :)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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So God makes people speak in a language only he can understand? Wouldn't that imply that he would already know what was being said in tongues and therefore make the entire exercise irrelevant? It's like me inventing a written language that only I understand, sending you a long email in this language for you to send back to me. What I would like to know is has anyone spoken in tongues without having heard about it before hand? If everyone that has spoken in tongues has already been told that God will interact with them this way and they want God to interact with them it seems likely that it's just their subconscious fucking with them. But you're right, it is fucking funny to see.
I was raised Catholic and my understanding of speaking in tongues is that the Holy Spirit came down upon the Apostles (on Pentecost) and allowed them to speak in other languages (not their native language) so that the gathered crowd could hear and understand the word of God as proclaimed by the Apostles in their own tongue or language. Ok it's a miracle ... not sure I believe it but at least as far as miracles go it makes a modicum of sense. Pentecostal speaking in tongues means that regular people are blessed by God and they speak in God's language. Doesn't make sense to me at all. If God is such a smarty pants then he pretty much should be able to understand every language not just his own (Aramaic [^]?? ). So the people listening, to the Pentecostal "speaking in tongues", can not understand a word of what is being spoken (gibberish). Not my idea of a very useful talent or miracle. What's the point other than the people that I know that speak in tongues think they are pretty special. :doh:
modified on Wednesday, June 9, 2010 1:57 PM
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
A little...nala?
Dyslexic fingers. I meant 'anal' :)
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Very true... Omniscience: Knowing the past and present can be internally consistent, but knowing the future is not. If you work on the "fate" hypothesis, where everything is preordained, then you can know your future actions and thus act differently. If you work on the "butterfly effect" hypothesis, then merely knowing the future makes that knowledge mostly invalid (The act of learning about it changes it). Omnipotence: Easy... The old saying... "Can you make a stone so heavy that you yourself can't lift it?" So either one leads to paradox.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Omniscience: Knowing the past and present can be internally consistent, but knowing the future is not. If you work on the "fate" hypothesis, where everything is preordained, then you can know your future actions and thus act differently. If you work on the "butterfly effect" hypothesis, then merely knowing the future makes that knowledge mostly invalid (The act of learning about it changes it).
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Omnipotence: Easy... The old saying... "Can you make a stone so heavy that you yourself can't lift it?"
Time and Weight are constructs of our perception, as is Logic. Past, Present, Future, Heavy, Paradox, are terms meaningless when used in relation to God. God is not Omniscient, God is not Omnipotent, these definitions are used by the religious as approximations to the nature of God, which itself is beyond the comprehension of mankind. BTW: I do not believe in God, I am merely playing the Devil's Advocate. :confused:
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.
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They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
They are not Christians at all. A Christian, at the point of conversion, speaks in tongues. That's what the Bible says. They are not deliberately fake, they are simply religious without being Christians.
That's the most fucked-up-est thing I've heard in a while. :) So I have been a Catholic for over 40 years and just a few years ago I met a priest who spoke in tongues. So every person I know who is a Catholic who hasn't spoken in tongues is not a Christian? My wife dragged me to some wacky churches before she decided to become Catholic and I saw and heard quite a few strange things! Spinning, tongue speaking, keeling over strangeness. ;)
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*grin* as I keep saying, I didn't invent it, God did. I'm merely explaining it, and the core point is always that just because God doesn't do things our way, does not mean He is wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.