Kung Fu vs Muscle
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I took Karate from a ~135lbs female about a decade back. We sparred a few times and I'm pretty sure she'd kick the crap out of my 220lbs. She could put a solid block on pretty much anything I threw at her, and the time we worked with kicking and punching the heavy bag, she was able to put quite a bit more power in to it than anyone there. So yes, it makes you a better fighter. Now ~135lb black belt vs a 220lb black belt, I'd put my money on the big guy.
Right. Training helps in hand to hand. Evenly trained, the stronger might win. My karate teacher did teach that guns win - don't get cocky and start getting in fights. We were supposed to mature past that before getting black belts... I was doing karate for the exercise, not to beat up anyone... :suss:
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Gary Strunk wrote:
not locked safely away in a gun safe where it is supposed to be most of the time
And if it's kept handy, I would think that the worst way to be awakened in the middle of the night is by the sound of *someone* thumbing back the hammer of your personal .357 Magnum that is always kept in your nightstand... :omg:
My other signature is witty and insightful.
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Any physical activity that exceeds the effort to aim a pistol and squeeze a trigger is overrated. I'll give you 5 seconds to run 50 yards to kick my ass, but I'm sure my pistol will still kill you before you can touch me, and I won't even have to drop my beer to do it. (And if you're only 120 pounds - or even a body builder - you'll probably be completely winded before you've managed to run 20 of those yards.) FWIW, if it looks like you might get to me before the end of the five seconds, I'll just cheat and shoot you anyway. It's not that I want to win at all costs - I just don't want to take a chance on dropping my beer.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001 -
Not true. Yes it is harder to knock down a larger person, but a trained fighter knows how, where and when to hit. For example, it doesn't matter how much muscle you have, your solar plexus is always exposed. One good shot and you are on the ground gasping for air like a trout flapping around on the dock. I weigh in at 210lbs (black belt in TaeKwonDo) and have had the crap beat out of me by a 120lb girl, but I had no problem controlling a 200lb ex CFL linebacker. TKD teaches that you use the legs more simply because your skinny legs will always have more power then the big guys arms. Plus you can hit the guy effectively with kicks from a range that the he cannot reach with his arms. Skill does matter.
Bryan Kowalchuk, MBA, B.Tech, MCSD
solar plexis, throat, nose, ... lethal/nerve points yes sure - but thing is, you'd have to seriously maim or kill the guy in order to protect yourself. You can't really, not hurt the guy badly, while at the same time protect yourself. Not to mention most dojo teaches how to dance, not how to fight.
dev
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5 for the laugh, but in all fairness physical training (including reflex training) does indeed help the odds. Say for instance, since most people don't start a gun fight 100 yards away at high noon anymore, a properly trained person in close proximity can in fact get that gun away from you - breaking your trigger finger in the process - before you even have time to pull the trigger.
Jeremy Falcon
Always the highly trained person................... 15-20 yards with a semi auto pistol/assault rifle Bruce Lee could not take that gun from me before being shot a few times I might have a broken finger but he will have a dead body.... NO ONE is faster than a bullet except superman. Humble Programmer
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I wouldn't put money on the either. One may be bigger but if the smaller one is skilled and knows how to use his size effectively, and just as important, use his opponents size against him, it would be an even bet.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
Knew a guy that was a 2nd degree black belt 130lbs we were best friends and got into a few fights I was a person who never fought but had a few state records in power lifting he never had a chance all I had to do was rush him and basically after he was wrapped up and getting beat on that was the end. I agree that training in any kind of fight "can" help but many times the person just has their black belt because they have been doing marshal arts for 20 years and could do nothing in a street fight. Another thing no one has mentioned is what if the other person has a gun ?? Would you rather be a trained MA person or have a gun? Humble Programmer
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When I used to do Muay Thai, a bodybuilder started coming to the club (he doubled as a bouncer), and just about everybody in the club kicked seven barrels out of him. He was too musclebound - he had no flexibility, and his movements were slow. A skilled martial artist uses speed and accuracy to defend or attack as appropriate and will have faster reflexes (plus more flexibility) than the bodybuilder. In my reflexes were honed by a wonderful Filipino martial art called Escrima - when somebody is swinging a stick at high speed towards your head, you learn to defend yourself quickly.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
Not all people who are very strong are muscle bound like that although many are. I once worked out in the same place as a guy who weighed only 160 and bench pressed 380 to look at him you would have never known he was that strong because he looked to be average. Humble Programmer
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The point of martial arts in general is to provide smaller/weaker people with the skills and confidence they need to stand a chance against bigger or more threatening opponents. That said, I have no experience at all with kung fu (outside of seeing the odd kung fu movie), so I can't say anything as to the particular style. In a match of two kung fu fighters (be honest, how many of you just heard that song in your head?), in which two fighters of vastly diverse weight/strength face off using the same foundation of skills, I think the heavier fellow has a good probability of winning just because he probably has better endurance. In other styles, like Judo or Aikido, it's a bit easier to use an opponent's weight against them, so I doubt weight is as much of an advantage there.
Another thing that should be considered is regardless of skill or size usually the meaner person will win. Something I was learned when playing football was that the most athletic people were not always the best football players the best were the people that were reasonably athletic could keep their heads but were very mean to the other players hitting them as hard as they could trying to hurt them not just tackle them. Humble Programmer
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
so the best lesson in all of martial arts is always to avoid a fight at all costs
It's the most important lesson you're taught. The fight portion, outside of the discipline of the school, is truly a last resort.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
The problem is that although almost all martial arts teach that but everyone that I have ever met in martial arts was arrogant about fighting and would usually try to provoke fights to prove their skills. Humble Programmer
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I have studied martial arts for thirty-five years. Every now and then somebody allways comes up with the statement that they "would just shoot" me. I like to reach over and slap them and then ask why they didn't shoot me to stop me. This isn't the wild west. Most people DO NOT carry guns with them in public. Doing so gets you thrown in jail. Even waving a gun around in public can get you shot by the police, if they think you are threatening someone's life. A gun has a limited amount of ammunition and must be in your hand (not locked safely away in a gun safe where it is supposed to be most of the time) to be of any value. Martial arts training is always with you. It also teaches you how to think your way out of a fight without having to resort to violence. A gun does ONE thing. It kills. Once you pull the trigger you are commited to taking someone's life. What would you do if a buddy (drunk on a few too many of those beers you seem so fond of) decides to take a swing at you. Are you going to shoot him. Martial arts training can subdue, stun or kill. A gun can also be taken away from you and turn against you, especially if you are drinking beer and handling a gun. Something about as smart as drinking and driving. As a last thought, if you have brought a gun to a fight, chances are so has the other guy.
Yes guns are for killing that is why you do not shoot them at friends just take the hit or fight back... I have 25 years of training in shooting guns I guess you could say and I was always taught unless you intend to kill something never point a gun at it. Also I do carry a gun with me at all times because I have a right to carry permit the only place it does not go is into obvious places like airports and schools. If a person says I would just shoot you and you slap them with no warning and they aren't able to stop it that would be about the same as them shooting you with no warning after you telling them you could beat them up you would probably not be expecting that I hope... Humble Programmer
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It's fine. When there's a crime involving guns here, it still makes the news because it's not common. Knives now - that's our problem.
"WPF has many lovers. It's a veritable porn star!" - Josh Smith
As Braveheart once said, "You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Hobnobs!" - Martin Hughes.
You could kill someone with your car easier than a gun maybe you should ban those??? "If you outlaw guns the only people who will have guns are outlaws". <-Someone very smart... Humble Programmer
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I saw my dad demolish a guy roughly twice his size once, a good 6'3" to my dad's 5'6" and probably a good 50lbs on him. "What you going to do about it, shorty?" "I'm going to punch you twice in the ribs, breaking 3 of them at least, knee you in the crotch, then when your hollow head dips down I will punch you in your throat, and shut your mouth with an uppercut that breaks your jaw. After that I am going to take the money for the burrito you stole from my store and leave you on the floor as a sign to everyone about what happens to shoplifters." He didn't lie. Martial arts > muscle. Martial arts + muscle = horrifying results.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
Sounds like fighting was the last resort.... isn't that the code of honor or something?? Humble Programmer
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It depends It depends on whether the 80 kg (we work in SI units) is a wimp - has any internal fortitude , has any balls. If hes a sook then hes toast regardless. If he knows how to throw and take a punch and has been in a few real world scraps then hes got a size advantage and experience and then the old adage applies - a good big-un' will usually beat a good little-un'. Occams Razor applies. Bryce
MCAD --- To paraphrase Fred Dagg - the views expressed in this post are bloody good ones. --
Publitor, making Pubmed easy. http://www.sohocode.com/publitorOur kids books :The Snot Goblin, and Book 2 - the Snotgoblin and Fluff
That sir is true... mean people will almost always win if he is to honorable to pick up a bat the guy that isn't will win. If a guy tries to block me swinging a bat he will probably have a broken arm at the least. Humble Programmer
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big skilled human > small skilled human > big unskilled human > small unskilled human. Size helps, but skill does take precedence. I trained ninjutsu at one time in my life, and I must say that even after 3 years of training it was obvious to me that the much lighter and physically weaker instructors assistant (a girl no less) could kick my ass in under 3 seconds... Even if someone is weaker, if they are well trained, they will be faster, avoid and block blows, hit harder, and actually have an idea of what to do to win... Moral of the story: If you see someone adopt a fighting posture, step back :) disclaimer: this post is meant as a comparison in a perfect "all things being equal" setting, and does not take into account any special conditions such as one combatant holding a gun and beer and the other one running toward him for 50 yards :-D
Also does not take into account the guy that has been in karate for 2 weeks and learned a stance... Humble Programmer
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"which could be considered a martial art." is a martial art, just because something didn't come from the east doesn't mean it's not a martial art - boxing, wrestling (proper not the TV rubbish), La Savate, Krav Marda (sp?) all spring to mind as a quick start, there are many others....
Does anyone know why the best boxers are usually Mexican because they usually grow up in a rough area and can fight mean. Humble Programmer
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Also does not take into account the guy that has been in karate for 2 weeks and learned a stance... Humble Programmer
The guy that was on karate for 2 weeks probably won't adapt a stance in real danger, it takes much longer that that to make any fighting techique/style a natural thing in real situations. Even if he does, he'll be doing it on purpose, to show that "I have skills", and that has only one effect - make everyone present laugh their asses off. I'm talking about subtle stances for a fight, positioning the body for movement, not Chinese Kung-Fu movies claw style thingies that the 2 week karate guy would display :)
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Does anyone know why the best boxers are usually Mexican because they usually grow up in a rough area and can fight mean. Humble Programmer
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Yes guns are for killing that is why you do not shoot them at friends just take the hit or fight back... I have 25 years of training in shooting guns I guess you could say and I was always taught unless you intend to kill something never point a gun at it. Also I do carry a gun with me at all times because I have a right to carry permit the only place it does not go is into obvious places like airports and schools. If a person says I would just shoot you and you slap them with no warning and they aren't able to stop it that would be about the same as them shooting you with no warning after you telling them you could beat them up you would probably not be expecting that I hope... Humble Programmer
Slap maybe too harsh a word. I don't hit them to hurt, just a light touch to bring home the point that they are saying something imcredibly stupid. In thirty-five years of training I have never had to hurt anyone with my training. The confidence that I have gained has always allowed me to talk my way out of a fight or just walk away. And don't get me wrong, if I were put in a situation where I was fighting for a loved one's life or my own, I would willing use the advantage of a gun to win, if I had one (and I do own one). Even if caring a concealed weapon, there are many situations I could think of where you would not have time to pull it out in time to defend yourself. My point was that no one always has their gun in hand in every situation. Where as martial arts training is with you at ALL times. No one was ever arrested for presenting a calm, confident demeanor in a bad situation. And often times, that display is all that it takes to AVOID a fight.
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5 for the laugh, but in all fairness physical training (including reflex training) does indeed help the odds. Say for instance, since most people don't start a gun fight 100 yards away at high noon anymore, a properly trained person in close proximity can in fact get that gun away from you - breaking your trigger finger in the process - before you even have time to pull the trigger.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
5 for the laugh, but in all fairness physical training (including reflex training) does indeed help the odds. Say for instance, since most people don't start a gun fight 100 yards away at high noon anymore, a properly trained person in close proximity can in fact get that gun away from you - breaking your trigger finger in the process - before you even have time to pull the trigger.
Also - especially in countries like this one where, sensibly, people are prevented by law from carrying guns while shopping, driving, drinking in bars etc - most altercations don't involve guns (or even the worry that someone might have a gun). So obviously physical training will be of merit here. Not to mention that it has many many benefits outside of drunken barfights! An extended lifespan, and, surprisingly, increased intelligence. Strangely, mental exercise apparently leads to an extended lifespan as well :)
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Knew a guy that was a 2nd degree black belt 130lbs we were best friends and got into a few fights I was a person who never fought but had a few state records in power lifting he never had a chance all I had to do was rush him and basically after he was wrapped up and getting beat on that was the end. I agree that training in any kind of fight "can" help but many times the person just has their black belt because they have been doing marshal arts for 20 years and could do nothing in a street fight. Another thing no one has mentioned is what if the other person has a gun ?? Would you rather be a trained MA person or have a gun? Humble Programmer
programmervb.netc++ wrote:
Another thing no one has mentioned is what if the other person has a gun ?? Would you rather be a trained MA person or have a gun?
In general, I would rather be a trained MA person. In the specific instance that my opponent has a gun and intends to use it on me, I would rather have a gun, but I would even rather simply not be in that situation. In any case, the situation where I need a gun is extremely unlikely to occur, especially if people just don't carry the stupid things with them - for the same reason, I think the world would be much better off if nobody had nuclear weapons, rather than everyone having them - it just takes one lunatic, and no amount of skill (or guns, other than zero guns anywhere) can stop someone being shot in the back of the head by a lunatic factory worker. I think this attraction to guns and attitude that you should always carry a gun "just in case" is very short-sighted and dangerous. I would not want my children near a gun (and to pre-empt the question: no, I'm not scared of random armed burglars breaking into my house and shooting my children, because it's extremely unlikely. In fact it seems far more likely for my children to accidentally get shot with my gun, if I had one). Why do people constantly escalate debates about martial arts etc into "yeah but what if he has a gun? You should have a gun too"? What if there's a nuclear bomb? Do you have iodine pills and an NBC suit? Why not carry one in your car? There are plenty of unlikely eventualities that we could prepare for which don't involve raising the level of risk for ourselves and everyone else (i.e. if everyone carries a gun, everyone is in a lot more danger than if nobody carried a gun). Yet we don't prepare for them, because they're so unlikely. Yet we still carry guns to the local convenience store and have one near the bed "just in case". It boggles the mind. :wtf: