XOY
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Quite an old article[^], published here on the Guardian website but also comes as part of a book Bad Science[^]. I quite like the way he puts dilutions into context: The typical dilution is called "30C": this means that the original substance has been diluted by 1 drop in 100, 30 times. On the Society of Homeopaths site, in their "What is homeopathy?" section, they say that "30C contains less than 1 part per million of the original substance." This is an understatement: a 30C homeopathic preparation is a dilution of 1 in 10030, or rather 1 in 1060, which means a 1 followed by 60 zeroes, or - let's be absolutely clear - a dilution of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000. To phrase that in the Society of Homeopaths' terms, we should say: "30C contains less than one part per million million million million million million million million million million of the original substance." At a homeopathic dilution of 100C, which they sell routinely, and which homeopaths claim is even more powerful than 30C, the treating substance is diluted by more than the total number of atoms in the universe.
Sarchasm : The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
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Rage wrote:
Homeopathy[^] !
Definitely cute! I find that homeopathy does work, and it's also interesting reading in the mainstream medical journals that "they" are discovering that in some cases, smaller doses (and I mean, really small, microgram or less, IIRC) are actually more effective than a larger dose of a chemical. This was something I read in Science News a few months ago, I can't dig up the article right now. Though it's still a long way away from all the principles of homeopathy. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
I find that homeopathy does work
Well, I agree with you on that one (and I know that almost everybody here doesn't agree), but I don't believe in everything from homeopathy (they have different "schools"). For instance, I don't believe that homeopathy can be used as a replacement of traditional medecin. Taking homeopathy to cure a headache or a flu is nonsense to me. What I believe in, is that it can be used where traditional medecine is ineffective. Some years ago, I didn't believe in homeopathy at all and I thought like most people here that it was just a placebo. Then, my wife insisted repeatedly that I could go and consult an homeopath (which is also a traditional doctor) for a problem that I had for which traditional medecine couldn't do anything (. I finally accepted but I didn't believe in it at all. The homeopath tried two or three products that were totally ineffective and then he found something that worked really well. And by working it means that I got rid of a big part of the problem which was sometimes making my life a hell. Once in a while (every 2 or 3 years), the problem begins to come back and then I have to take a homeopathic dose once again and it goes better. Of course you could say that it is a placebo effect, but a placebo that last for that long is quite amazing :) . Furthermore, it didn't work for the firsts product that I took. Or you could say that it is pure coincidence that my problem was getting better just at that period but I find it hard to believe that the coincidence is repetitive.
Cédric Moonen Software developer
Charting control [v3.0] OpenGL game tutorial in C++ -
Quite an old article[^], published here on the Guardian website but also comes as part of a book Bad Science[^]. I quite like the way he puts dilutions into context: The typical dilution is called "30C": this means that the original substance has been diluted by 1 drop in 100, 30 times. On the Society of Homeopaths site, in their "What is homeopathy?" section, they say that "30C contains less than 1 part per million of the original substance." This is an understatement: a 30C homeopathic preparation is a dilution of 1 in 10030, or rather 1 in 1060, which means a 1 followed by 60 zeroes, or - let's be absolutely clear - a dilution of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000. To phrase that in the Society of Homeopaths' terms, we should say: "30C contains less than one part per million million million million million million million million million million of the original substance." At a homeopathic dilution of 100C, which they sell routinely, and which homeopaths claim is even more powerful than 30C, the treating substance is diluted by more than the total number of atoms in the universe.
Sarchasm : The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
The author of that book has been having a proper barney this week with cretinous non-doctor Gillian McKeith after she reacted badly to a piece he wrote about her lack of qualifications, first calling him a liar, then having a bit of a mental on Twitter and insulting people at random, before crudely attempting to distance herself from it all. More here[^] and here[^]
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I find that homeopathy does work
Well, I agree with you on that one (and I know that almost everybody here doesn't agree), but I don't believe in everything from homeopathy (they have different "schools"). For instance, I don't believe that homeopathy can be used as a replacement of traditional medecin. Taking homeopathy to cure a headache or a flu is nonsense to me. What I believe in, is that it can be used where traditional medecine is ineffective. Some years ago, I didn't believe in homeopathy at all and I thought like most people here that it was just a placebo. Then, my wife insisted repeatedly that I could go and consult an homeopath (which is also a traditional doctor) for a problem that I had for which traditional medecine couldn't do anything (. I finally accepted but I didn't believe in it at all. The homeopath tried two or three products that were totally ineffective and then he found something that worked really well. And by working it means that I got rid of a big part of the problem which was sometimes making my life a hell. Once in a while (every 2 or 3 years), the problem begins to come back and then I have to take a homeopathic dose once again and it goes better. Of course you could say that it is a placebo effect, but a placebo that last for that long is quite amazing :) . Furthermore, it didn't work for the firsts product that I took. Or you could say that it is pure coincidence that my problem was getting better just at that period but I find it hard to believe that the coincidence is repetitive.
Cédric Moonen Software developer
Charting control [v3.0] OpenGL game tutorial in C++Cedric Moonen wrote:
Of course you could say that it is a placebo effect, but a placebo that last for that long is quite amazing
Erm, actually, that's precisely how placebos work. They actually work better, subsequent times, but all that's really happening is that your body is curing itself more efficiently, because it's had more practice. I've got no problem at all with the idea of using placebos, hypnotism, monomania, etc. to get people to cure themselves, rather than pump them full of drugs; it's the lunatic element saying that all illnesses should be treated in that way that worries me.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Cedric Moonen wrote:
Of course you could say that it is a placebo effect, but a placebo that last for that long is quite amazing
Erm, actually, that's precisely how placebos work. They actually work better, subsequent times, but all that's really happening is that your body is curing itself more efficiently, because it's had more practice. I've got no problem at all with the idea of using placebos, hypnotism, monomania, etc. to get people to cure themselves, rather than pump them full of drugs; it's the lunatic element saying that all illnesses should be treated in that way that worries me.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Erm, actually, that's precisely how placebos work.
Well ok then :) . But I thought that for placebo to work, you had to believe in it. I was quite skeptical at the beginning (but I didn't completely reject the idea neither).
Mark Wallace wrote:
it's the lunatic element saying that all illnesses should be treated in that way that worries me
I totally agree: as I said, I would only use homeopathy in complement of traditional medicine (where it is ineffective for instance).
Cédric Moonen Software developer
Charting control [v3.0] OpenGL game tutorial in C++ -
Mark Wallace wrote:
Erm, actually, that's precisely how placebos work.
Well ok then :) . But I thought that for placebo to work, you had to believe in it. I was quite skeptical at the beginning (but I didn't completely reject the idea neither).
Mark Wallace wrote:
it's the lunatic element saying that all illnesses should be treated in that way that worries me
I totally agree: as I said, I would only use homeopathy in complement of traditional medicine (where it is ineffective for instance).
Cédric Moonen Software developer
Charting control [v3.0] OpenGL game tutorial in C++Cedric Moonen wrote:
But I thought that for placebo to work, you had to believe in it.
Not exactly. You just have to want it to work and believe you can get better; it then becomes a trigger that makes your body do the work. The really good news is that it will continue to work, even if incontrovertible proof is found that the substance itself doesn't do anything -- because the substance itself doesn't have to do anything; it's just a trigger, and when your body receives that trigger, it gets on with the job. So the homeopathic remedy you've been using will continue to have the effect of causing you to cure yourself. You probably couldn't stop it working if you tried.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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5! LOL - and spraying coffee!
Did you know: That by counting the rings on a tree trunk, you can tell how many other trees it has slept with.
OriginalGriff wrote:
spraying coffee
:-\ My work here is done.
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The author of that book has been having a proper barney this week with cretinous non-doctor Gillian McKeith after she reacted badly to a piece he wrote about her lack of qualifications, first calling him a liar, then having a bit of a mental on Twitter and insulting people at random, before crudely attempting to distance herself from it all. More here[^] and here[^]
That was entertaining! GM does appear to take badly to criticism.
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Homeopathy was thoroughly disproven in exhaustive triple-blind tests carried out for Horizon. And do try to think sense: -- If it really did work, then the tiny-weeny amounts of thousands of chemicals that enter our systems every day would have long ago turned us all into three-eyed fish. -- If you ate an apple pip, would you die of strychnine poisoning faster than if you drank a bottleful of it? Or is part of the mystique that it only works for chemicals that have beneficial effects?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
An interesting point is that the are indications - though no conclusive studies - that the homeopatic "personalized" treatment as a whole does work beyond the placebo effect. Apparently, the longer sessions with the doctor homeopath? - as opposed to the 5 minutes per patient rush in classic medicine - works well as a mild form of psychotherapy. That's probably especially effective for sicknesses with neurological or psychological background / reinforcement, with weak, non-specific symptoms, where the choice of the doctor is the choice of the diagnosis. So, the funny thing is, even if the "science" and explanations and rituals are total bullshit and the globulis - they do NOTHING - it might be an effective part of a health care system. :cool:
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server. -
Marc Clifton wrote:
I find that homeopathy does work
Well, I agree with you on that one (and I know that almost everybody here doesn't agree), but I don't believe in everything from homeopathy (they have different "schools"). For instance, I don't believe that homeopathy can be used as a replacement of traditional medecin. Taking homeopathy to cure a headache or a flu is nonsense to me. What I believe in, is that it can be used where traditional medecine is ineffective. Some years ago, I didn't believe in homeopathy at all and I thought like most people here that it was just a placebo. Then, my wife insisted repeatedly that I could go and consult an homeopath (which is also a traditional doctor) for a problem that I had for which traditional medecine couldn't do anything (. I finally accepted but I didn't believe in it at all. The homeopath tried two or three products that were totally ineffective and then he found something that worked really well. And by working it means that I got rid of a big part of the problem which was sometimes making my life a hell. Once in a while (every 2 or 3 years), the problem begins to come back and then I have to take a homeopathic dose once again and it goes better. Of course you could say that it is a placebo effect, but a placebo that last for that long is quite amazing :) . Furthermore, it didn't work for the firsts product that I took. Or you could say that it is pure coincidence that my problem was getting better just at that period but I find it hard to believe that the coincidence is repetitive.
Cédric Moonen Software developer
Charting control [v3.0] OpenGL game tutorial in C++That's been my experience as well. I'd have quoted all of what you wrote, but that seemed pointless. I understand the illogic of homeopathy, but so what. People used to think the earth was flat. Marc
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An interesting point is that the are indications - though no conclusive studies - that the homeopatic "personalized" treatment as a whole does work beyond the placebo effect. Apparently, the longer sessions with the doctor homeopath? - as opposed to the 5 minutes per patient rush in classic medicine - works well as a mild form of psychotherapy. That's probably especially effective for sicknesses with neurological or psychological background / reinforcement, with weak, non-specific symptoms, where the choice of the doctor is the choice of the diagnosis. So, the funny thing is, even if the "science" and explanations and rituals are total bullshit and the globulis - they do NOTHING - it might be an effective part of a health care system. :cool:
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.Yup. Good "bedside manner" has always been considered as being as much of a cure as the medicine prescribed.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
