About Muslims
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David Wulff wrote: Go back five hundred years to end of the Tudor's reign in England and Militant Christian Extremists were very real and there were *lots* of them. But not all Christians were militant extremests though, not by a long shot. Now fast forward to the start of the 21st centurary and the same is true of Muslims. Ok some already threw the whole Crusades thing at me (not saying yours is, but the general idea) and I still do not see how that validates what is happening here and now. I know us European white folk did some terrible things. I am sorry for the 50 billionth time. Yes we are the root of all the worlds problems. Now that is sorted, why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? What bee has gotten under their bonnets.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonPaul Watson wrote: why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? You have to take into account that their religion is quite "younger" than Christianity. In fact it's about 600 years younger. Islam is nowadays where Christianity was 600 years ago. Why am I still a bronze member?
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Colin Davies wrote: If they were right, why do they have to keep blowing themselves up ? Don't you think you generalize a little too much ? After all, there are hundreds of millions of muslims across the World, and they don't blow up everything. I would rather say it's caused by a mix of poverty, intolerance and manipulation by extremists.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
KaЯl wrote: caused by a mix of poverty and poverty's offspring - lack of education :(
"How many eiffel towers are there in Paris?" "I'd say 10." "Where was the Berlin Wall?" "Israel"
Stupid People - posted by Loket
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I don't think that applies - there are plenty open to misinterpretation in the Bible, from an extremist pov or otherwise. Indeed there is plenty being and that has been misinterpreted.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Life, as well as software, has bugs." - Roger Wright
Indeed. In fact, Catholics and Protestants differ on less than 1% of the Bibles teachings - rather than celebrate the 99% they have in common, they use the 1% they don't as a good excuse to kill each other. Unbelievable. I was in Glasgow recently and was amazed at the amount of sectarianism I witnessed. Isn't this the 21st century?
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Paul Watson wrote: why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? You have to take into account that their religion is quite "younger" than Christianity. In fact it's about 600 years younger. Islam is nowadays where Christianity was 600 years ago. Why am I still a bronze member?
Francisco Viella wrote: You have to take into account that their religion is quite "younger" than Christianity. In fact it's about 600 years younger. Islam is nowadays where Christianity was 600 years ago. We should not be validating, basing, rationalising etc. based on 600 year old trend in another religion. If there is some kind of direct link then fine, but nobody has shown me it yet. Anyway, trend or not why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson -
I don't think that applies - there are plenty open to misinterpretation in the Bible, from an extremist pov or otherwise. Indeed there is plenty being and that has been misinterpreted.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Life, as well as software, has bugs." - Roger Wright
David Wulff wrote: I don't think that applies - there are plenty open to misinterpretation in the Bible, from an extremist pov or otherwise. Indeed there is plenty being and that has been misinterpreted. AFAIK, in the christians bible they state that justice will come by the hand of god (even if only in the judgement day). Maybe in the quoran they don´t have a statement like that, or they don´t make it clear (I don´t know the quoran... and not much of the bibli too) Mauricio Ritter - Brazil Sonorking now: 100.13560 MRitter "Th@ langwagje is screwed! It has if's but no end if's!! Stupid php cant even do butuns on forms! VISHAUL BASICS ARE THE FUTSHURE!" - Simon Walton
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Francisco Viella wrote: You have to take into account that their religion is quite "younger" than Christianity. In fact it's about 600 years younger. Islam is nowadays where Christianity was 600 years ago. We should not be validating, basing, rationalising etc. based on 600 year old trend in another religion. If there is some kind of direct link then fine, but nobody has shown me it yet. Anyway, trend or not why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonPaul Watson wrote: Anyway, trend or not why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? IMHO all this extremism in religions is just a "curtain", to cover the real economical and geographic interest (not a matter of belief)... to gain the people "support" they use the religion as an excuse. Mauricio Ritter - Brazil Sonorking now: 100.13560 MRitter "Th@ langwagje is screwed! It has if's but no end if's!! Stupid php cant even do butuns on forms! VISHAUL BASICS ARE THE FUTSHURE!" - Simon Walton
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KaЯl wrote: intolerance and manipulation by extremists. I hardly ever hear the term Militant Christian Extremist. Yet virtually everynight I hear of Militant Islamic Extremists. Why is that? And don't say it is my media, South Africa is PRO Palestine. I often hear our reporters scorning Bush and then praising someone like Gadafi for gods sake!
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonI hardly ever hear the term Militant Christian Extremist. Perhaps that term isn't applied by the Christian media, but don't the IRA, Quebecois, Branch Davidians (of Waco fame), National Liberation Front of Tripura (India), etc. qualify as Militant Christian Extremists?
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David Wulff wrote: Go back five hundred years to end of the Tudor's reign in England and Militant Christian Extremists were very real and there were *lots* of them. But not all Christians were militant extremests though, not by a long shot. Now fast forward to the start of the 21st centurary and the same is true of Muslims. Ok some already threw the whole Crusades thing at me (not saying yours is, but the general idea) and I still do not see how that validates what is happening here and now. I know us European white folk did some terrible things. I am sorry for the 50 billionth time. Yes we are the root of all the worlds problems. Now that is sorted, why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? What bee has gotten under their bonnets.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonPaul Watson wrote: Now that is sorted, why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? What bee has gotten under their bonnets. As much as the extremists hate being "interfered with", they also hate being ignored. "The folly of man is that he dreams of what he can never achieve rather than dream of what he can."
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David Wulff wrote: I don't think that applies - there are plenty open to misinterpretation in the Bible, from an extremist pov or otherwise. Indeed there is plenty being and that has been misinterpreted. AFAIK, in the christians bible they state that justice will come by the hand of god (even if only in the judgement day). Maybe in the quoran they don´t have a statement like that, or they don´t make it clear (I don´t know the quoran... and not much of the bibli too) Mauricio Ritter - Brazil Sonorking now: 100.13560 MRitter "Th@ langwagje is screwed! It has if's but no end if's!! Stupid php cant even do butuns on forms! VISHAUL BASICS ARE THE FUTSHURE!" - Simon Walton
AFAIK Islam too believes that you are judged by god, so: yes there would be. I can't imagine there not being that clause - it is one of the fundamentals of creating a sucessful religion - one that places judgement in the hands of a divine being or force you can't interfere with (physically, emotional, etc). If it wasn't for that clause, mainkind would long since have argued itself out of all the others.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Life, as well as software, has bugs." - Roger Wright
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KaЯl wrote: intolerance and manipulation by extremists. I hardly ever hear the term Militant Christian Extremist. Yet virtually everynight I hear of Militant Islamic Extremists. Why is that? And don't say it is my media, South Africa is PRO Palestine. I often hear our reporters scorning Bush and then praising someone like Gadafi for gods sake!
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonIn the 80's, when Scorcese Made the Last Temptation of Christ, a movie theater was bombed by christian integrits in Paris because it was playing this movie (22th October 1988, 1 dead). In the USA, I think remember some MD were killed by anti-abortionist extremists. It's not related to the Religion, just to the geopolitical situation and the mediatic coverage. About palestinians, are you sure they are all muslims? Aren't some of some christians too ? :confused:
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
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In the 80's, when Scorcese Made the Last Temptation of Christ, a movie theater was bombed by christian integrits in Paris because it was playing this movie (22th October 1988, 1 dead). In the USA, I think remember some MD were killed by anti-abortionist extremists. It's not related to the Religion, just to the geopolitical situation and the mediatic coverage. About palestinians, are you sure they are all muslims? Aren't some of some christians too ? :confused:
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
KaЯl wrote: About palestinians, are you sure they are all muslims? Aren't some of some christians too Yes I believe so. Probably some Buddhists, spiritualists, tree huggers and VB programmers in there as well. KaЯl wrote: It's not related to the Religion, just to the geopolitical situation and the mediatic coverage. So right now there are as many Christians causing trouble over land and politics as there are Muslims causing trouble? Whether they are under the banner of religion or not people are and always will be grouped. Plus they do declare it is based on their beliefs, whether they are misguided or not they still claim it and so their beliefs must be having some influence, even if it is twisted by preachers. There is something which has led to Muslims being the pre-dominant trouble causers of this time. Is that statement wrong?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul Watson -
Are they just frustrated cyclists at heart ? If they were right, why do they have to keep blowing themselves up ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Nothing quite like generilasing and prejudice is there Colin ? Didn't know the IRA were muslims............ Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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David Wulff wrote: Go back five hundred years to end of the Tudor's reign in England and Militant Christian Extremists were very real and there were *lots* of them. But not all Christians were militant extremests though, not by a long shot. Now fast forward to the start of the 21st centurary and the same is true of Muslims. Ok some already threw the whole Crusades thing at me (not saying yours is, but the general idea) and I still do not see how that validates what is happening here and now. I know us European white folk did some terrible things. I am sorry for the 50 billionth time. Yes we are the root of all the worlds problems. Now that is sorted, why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? What bee has gotten under their bonnets.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaRay Cassick wrote:
Well I am not female, not gay and I am not Paul WatsonPaul Watson wrote: why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? Perhaps: Corruption in government, and greater global awareness. If your government sucks and in general you live at some unacceptable level of poverty your pissed. All it takes is for a fanatical group to urge you to "join the fight for freedom". I'm sure if their were such leaders in China or even India, we might be in a similar predicament but looking at a different group of people. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Nothing quite like generilasing and prejudice is there Colin ? Didn't know the IRA were muslims............ Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
A little bit different as there is/was no such thing as an IRA suicide bomber... though there were hunger strikers that died for what they believed in, you never had IRA terrorists blowing themselves up like, for example, some Palestinians do. The only exceptions were those who died when their bombs went off before they could plant them (I call that "justice"!). You have to REALLY believe in something very very strongly in order to sacrifice your life for your cause, and therein lies the problem. The 9/11 terrorists were no doubt covinced that they would end up with 50 vestal virgins each when they arrived in heaven, etc. - defending against people who have beliefs like this is VERY hard indeed. This whole subject is a can of worms really, but the IRA, though terrorists, were a different kettle of fish - had they of started blowing themselves suicide-style, then things would of been far worse.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Paul Watson wrote: why is there this surge of Islamic Extremists? Perhaps: Corruption in government, and greater global awareness. If your government sucks and in general you live at some unacceptable level of poverty your pissed. All it takes is for a fanatical group to urge you to "join the fight for freedom". I'm sure if their were such leaders in China or even India, we might be in a similar predicament but looking at a different group of people. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
brianwelsch wrote: India Hello?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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brianwelsch wrote: India Hello?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Hello. :) I suppose you're wondering why I picked out India. [sigh] I'm not suggesting Indians will rise up as terrorists, just that with my understanding of Indias current economy it might be easier to rile up feelings of anger in a large group. And with the wrong leader these angered people could be swayed to do terrible things. purely hypothetical, Rohit.:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Hello. :) I suppose you're wondering why I picked out India. [sigh] I'm not suggesting Indians will rise up as terrorists, just that with my understanding of Indias current economy it might be easier to rile up feelings of anger in a large group. And with the wrong leader these angered people could be swayed to do terrible things. purely hypothetical, Rohit.:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
I understand it was purely hypothetical, and I also gathered from your post that there was an implicit acknowledgement that India is not one of those countries that might end up as terrorists (if it was China and India... or something along those lines in your previous post). However, I would also like to point out that we Indians are basically a peaceful lot. OK, OK, you can tell me that there have been incidents. But basically we are peaceful. We have good relations with every country except pakistan maybe, and that too because of a good reason. We even did peaceful demonstrations while fighting for our independence from the British, when we didn't get proper food, health care, education, and were treated worse than dogs. (Many places in India had these notices, "Indians and dogs not allowed".) We did not resort to violence then, and it is unlikely that this will happen in the future. Yes, the Indian economy is in a sorry state compared to many. But we are trying hard. :) When we see a person from a rich country like yours, we say, "Wow!" not "Fuck!". :) I guess I just over reacted though. I had just replied to a post in the lounge which did not exactly sing hymns about India, and was still hyper sensitive. I don't jump like that usually. Peace. :) :rose:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
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I understand it was purely hypothetical, and I also gathered from your post that there was an implicit acknowledgement that India is not one of those countries that might end up as terrorists (if it was China and India... or something along those lines in your previous post). However, I would also like to point out that we Indians are basically a peaceful lot. OK, OK, you can tell me that there have been incidents. But basically we are peaceful. We have good relations with every country except pakistan maybe, and that too because of a good reason. We even did peaceful demonstrations while fighting for our independence from the British, when we didn't get proper food, health care, education, and were treated worse than dogs. (Many places in India had these notices, "Indians and dogs not allowed".) We did not resort to violence then, and it is unlikely that this will happen in the future. Yes, the Indian economy is in a sorry state compared to many. But we are trying hard. :) When we see a person from a rich country like yours, we say, "Wow!" not "Fuck!". :) I guess I just over reacted though. I had just replied to a post in the lounge which did not exactly sing hymns about India, and was still hyper sensitive. I don't jump like that usually. Peace. :) :rose:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
I in no way was trying to imply India as being aggressive or hostile. I do understand you to be "basically a peaceful lot" :) Perhaps I was wrong to pick out any country to try to illustrate my point. Sorry, if it got you "out of sorts".:rose: Rohit Sinha wrote: I guess I just over reacted though No problem. I would much rather see someone get excited about the good of their country, than the normal finger pointing we see. ;) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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David Wulff wrote: I don't think that applies - there are plenty open to misinterpretation in the Bible, from an extremist pov or otherwise. Indeed there is plenty being and that has been misinterpreted. AFAIK, in the christians bible they state that justice will come by the hand of god (even if only in the judgement day). Maybe in the quoran they don´t have a statement like that, or they don´t make it clear (I don´t know the quoran... and not much of the bibli too) Mauricio Ritter - Brazil Sonorking now: 100.13560 MRitter "Th@ langwagje is screwed! It has if's but no end if's!! Stupid php cant even do butuns on forms! VISHAUL BASICS ARE THE FUTSHURE!" - Simon Walton
The Quran encourages it's followers to kill infidels. Most Muslims are, I believe, peacable folk who just skip those bits. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Paul Watson wrote: I hardly ever hear the term Militant Christian Extremist. Yet virtually everynight I hear of Militant Islamic Extremists. Go back five hundred years to end of the Tudor's reign in England and Militant Christian Extremists were very real and there were *lots* of them. But not all Christians were militant extremests though, not by a long shot. Now fast forward to the start of the 21st centurary and the same is true of Muslims.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Life, as well as software, has bugs." - Roger Wright
David Wulff wrote: Go back five hundred years to end of the Tudor's reign in England and Militant Christian Extremists were very real and there were *lots* of them. But not all Christians were militant extremests though, not by a long shot. Now fast forward to the start of the 21st centurary and the same is true of Muslims. Interesting you should bring this up. I have been thinking on very similar lines to this being a corollary. Now for Paul's education this is not the crusades this is actions in Switzerland, through England where 1000's were killed because they did not profess the correct faith. (At least that I what I think you are referring to.) If my memory is correct in the middle 1600's Switzerland had a secret police force of 5 to 10 thousand who had the authority to kill those who have improper beliefs. That and look at what England went through following their civil war. Now I find that Europe was primarily feudal states at this time. Local lords really had the power of life and death to the common man and they had to do his bidding (including his faith, etc.) My perception is that much of Arabic countries that just happen to be Islamic are really about in the same state. The local lords are calling the shots. Am I just crazy here or on to something? "I will find a new sig someday."