More about God....
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Christian Graus wrote: The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. Too true. Many people who believe that all religions are equal (we all pray to the same God, etc.) either don't belive that there is a God or believe that he is either powerless or uninterested. However, I have a personal salvation from a personal God who cares about me personally. Not only does he have an opinion, I believe that his opinioin is the only one that matters. He is not an impersonal God, he is not powerless and he is not uninterested. For me to say that all religions are equal is paramount to saying that the personal God whom I know has nothing to offer others. This clearly violates the teachings of Christ who desired to share his salvation with the unbelieving world because he had compassion for their condition and saw their souls needs. Having said that, I am all for religions freedom. I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat nor do I want anyone doing this to me. I belive that my beliefs are true as much as everyone else and I feel a need to share those beliefs with those around me because I know the power of my God and the need which only he can satisfy.
Well said. The difference between being willing to inform people you believe they are wrong, and their having that right is exactly what I was on about, and I concur with everything you've said. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Finally! Someone I totally agree with. I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?"
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
David Stone wrote: It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" I'm hoping it's the thought that counts ;P I don't really think God (and I use this term loosly) would mind which day of the week I took for break to worship him. Be it sunday, saturday, friday or any other day of the week. I would assume that such divine entity would have better things to worry about rather than my timing. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704
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David Stone wrote: It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" I'm hoping it's the thought that counts ;P I don't really think God (and I use this term loosly) would mind which day of the week I took for break to worship him. Be it sunday, saturday, friday or any other day of the week. I would assume that such divine entity would have better things to worry about rather than my timing. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704
I'm not discriminating against your choice of which day to worship. I'm saying that there are fundamental differences between the religions of say: Christianity and Islam. See what I mean?
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I share my faith when I get the chance. I just get upset when people cop out of the discussion with that relativistic phrase.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. Absolutely - talk is cheap, especially where religion is concerned. It makes me sad that I cannot tell people I am a Christian without explaining what that means, because most people do not know, they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Most of them already have the wrong idea. Usually from media or past experiences with *David does the little quote fingers thingy*"Christians" they have an incorrect view of true Christians.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Most of them already have the wrong idea. Usually from media or past experiences with *David does the little quote fingers thingy*"Christians" they have an incorrect view of true Christians.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I just didn't know what key to press for the 'quote thingy' :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I just didn't know what key to press for the 'quote thingy' :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Oh yeah. It's really easy, you just do: *Your name here does the little quote fingers thingy* :-D
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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The fact that you had many heated debates in itself proves something. I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. Chris Austin wrote: Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Only in a dark alley at knife point would I tell what I have studied. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. For the most part I wholehartly agree. However, I think contemporary sciences are far more data-driven than in the past. This is where I think the divsion takes place for people like many of my classmates. They need to see the verifiable, repeatable, and undisputable data. From those arguments long ago, I learned that those people will not accept religion on faith based arguments. They will have to find their own glimpse of the sublime. Later Chris Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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Christian Graus wrote: The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. Too true. Many people who believe that all religions are equal (we all pray to the same God, etc.) either don't belive that there is a God or believe that he is either powerless or uninterested. However, I have a personal salvation from a personal God who cares about me personally. Not only does he have an opinion, I believe that his opinioin is the only one that matters. He is not an impersonal God, he is not powerless and he is not uninterested. For me to say that all religions are equal is paramount to saying that the personal God whom I know has nothing to offer others. This clearly violates the teachings of Christ who desired to share his salvation with the unbelieving world because he had compassion for their condition and saw their souls needs. Having said that, I am all for religions freedom. I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat nor do I want anyone doing this to me. I belive that my beliefs are true as much as everyone else and I feel a need to share those beliefs with those around me because I know the power of my God and the need which only he can satisfy.
Matt Gullett wrote: I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat As disciples of Christ, we are to follow his example. He did not shove his teachings down anyone's throat either.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
I'm not discriminating against your choice of which day to worship. I'm saying that there are fundamental differences between the religions of say: Christianity and Islam. See what I mean?
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Actually all the differences are rather preferation. Who is the official prophet? which animal can't be eaten? how many times a day should you pray? and so on. Put in the shoes of a believer, I would like to think that God is not a QBasic program which sorts out people by their food menu or their shaving habbits. I would prefer to believe that it is the core intentions of the person, his insight, approach and virtue that would grant him an afterlife in heaven rather than his performance of rituals and having prayed 10 minutes before sunset and not 3 minutes later. As a greater entity God should not have the pettiness of man. I think this is what most believers miss. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704
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I'm confused - when did I suggest it did ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
you didn't I was just thinking further...:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Ooh, good post, Christian! It's funny to me that so many people seem to think that geeks are nontheistic (don't bother looking it up - I think I just fabricated it). At great personal risk of ridicule I'll reveal a bit of my own beliefs, only because I respect your learning, wisdom, and self-restraint. Imagine, for a moment, a God who created all things, who brought order into the maelstrom by His will, and with it brought a set of laws of existence which all sentient beings (who by His design have the power to influence His creation by virtue of being created in His image). Through the eons He sent avatars to teach and explain how the laws of His Universe work, but few were willing to listen. He isn't a petulant, narcissistic God who craves the adulation of His creations, but He does wish them to respect the laws on which He based His creation, and He tries His utmost to explain them to His creations. Because His children are divided by space and culture, He has to deliver this information by varied routes, through many avatars. To the Jews He sends Moses, and Moses dutifully delivers a message consistent with the mindset of the time, in the form of rigid laws that even the Pharisees will accept - the commandments. They are but a codified representation of those acts and deeds that are inconsistent with the laws upon which He built His Universe. Those who transgress will set themselves apart from His creation - an act of free will, but one which leads to what we might call Hell, an eternal separation from our Creator. To those who are willing to listen He sends an alternative. Through Jesus He sends a message for those willing to hear it - "I love my children, and if you will but truly regret your transgressions - repent - I will grant you grace." Still, it is the same message that He sent through Moses - live by the laws of My universe and you will prosper. Live outside of them, and you will never again see Me. Again to the Muslims, He sends a message and a set of laws for them to obey in order to be consistent with the rules by which the universe works. According to my copy of the Koran, He instructs them to (paraphrasing) "Leave the infidels to Me - mind your own relationship with Me. Concern yourself with Our relationship - I'll worry about them." The American Indian tribes venerate a Great Spirit - World Maker - who's laws and traditions must be respected for right living. All of these traditions, and more that I cannot recall, have a common thread. That is that God is, that
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David Stone wrote: "And which religion is good for God?" Exactly. Heaven will not be fully multi denominational. Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Even denominations may be divided by parishes depending on sermons recieved. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Didn't you see South Park? The Mormons got it right. ;P Jon Sagara If you think of wheat fields as questionable metaphors, you can think of me as the state of Kansas. -- Mike Blaszczak
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Colin Davies wrote: Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Didn't you see South Park? The Mormons got it right. ;P Jon Sagara If you think of wheat fields as questionable metaphors, you can think of me as the state of Kansas. -- Mike Blaszczak
Jon Sagara wrote: Didn't you see South Park? The Mormons got it right. The MORMONS ??? Geez God must have gone looney !! :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Colin Davies wrote: Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Didn't you see South Park? The Mormons got it right. ;P Jon Sagara If you think of wheat fields as questionable metaphors, you can think of me as the state of Kansas. -- Mike Blaszczak
Jon Sagara wrote: The Mormons got it right. But they got the spelling wrong. It's obvious it was meant to be spelled 'morons'.
"What do you want to do tonight, Bill?"
"Same thing we do every night, Steve. Try to take over the world!" -
Ooh, good post, Christian! It's funny to me that so many people seem to think that geeks are nontheistic (don't bother looking it up - I think I just fabricated it). At great personal risk of ridicule I'll reveal a bit of my own beliefs, only because I respect your learning, wisdom, and self-restraint. Imagine, for a moment, a God who created all things, who brought order into the maelstrom by His will, and with it brought a set of laws of existence which all sentient beings (who by His design have the power to influence His creation by virtue of being created in His image). Through the eons He sent avatars to teach and explain how the laws of His Universe work, but few were willing to listen. He isn't a petulant, narcissistic God who craves the adulation of His creations, but He does wish them to respect the laws on which He based His creation, and He tries His utmost to explain them to His creations. Because His children are divided by space and culture, He has to deliver this information by varied routes, through many avatars. To the Jews He sends Moses, and Moses dutifully delivers a message consistent with the mindset of the time, in the form of rigid laws that even the Pharisees will accept - the commandments. They are but a codified representation of those acts and deeds that are inconsistent with the laws upon which He built His Universe. Those who transgress will set themselves apart from His creation - an act of free will, but one which leads to what we might call Hell, an eternal separation from our Creator. To those who are willing to listen He sends an alternative. Through Jesus He sends a message for those willing to hear it - "I love my children, and if you will but truly regret your transgressions - repent - I will grant you grace." Still, it is the same message that He sent through Moses - live by the laws of My universe and you will prosper. Live outside of them, and you will never again see Me. Again to the Muslims, He sends a message and a set of laws for them to obey in order to be consistent with the rules by which the universe works. According to my copy of the Koran, He instructs them to (paraphrasing) "Leave the infidels to Me - mind your own relationship with Me. Concern yourself with Our relationship - I'll worry about them." The American Indian tribes venerate a Great Spirit - World Maker - who's laws and traditions must be respected for right living. All of these traditions, and more that I cannot recall, have a common thread. That is that God is, that
Roger Wright wrote: Nowhere in these messages from God (or Allah, or Yahweh, or any other name you'd care to quote) do such trivial items exist as "Dancing is wrong", "Meat should not be eaten on Friday," "Wiping your ass with the same hand you used to partake of dinner is evil." These, and all the other trivial discriminatorial distinctions made by churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples around the world are the inventions of Man, not God. I'm not sure I agree with all of this post, but this bit is certainly true - the 'churches' seem to spend a lot of time talking about trivial things. Jesus called it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. That is absolutely correct. Although, I would point out that almost all of the actual settlers were not English, they were Scots. And as Scots, they were the descendents of people who, a few centuries before, had claimed that very part of Ireland as their homeland, only to have it "stolen" from them by Clan O'Neal. So the territorial disputes go far back before the Tudor English to a time when there were no religious differences at all. (But maybe thats just something I saw in a movie somewhwere;P) "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I share my faith when I get the chance. I just get upset when people cop out of the discussion with that relativistic phrase.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
David Stone wrote: I just get upset when people cop out of the discussion with that relativistic phrase. And I get mad at those who cheaply misquote others, as you have just blatantly done. Do you know what a comma vs a period means? Apparently not! The sentence was "Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies." I made no statement of my sharing other than I do. "I will find a new sig someday."
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Roger Wright wrote: Nowhere in these messages from God (or Allah, or Yahweh, or any other name you'd care to quote) do such trivial items exist as "Dancing is wrong", "Meat should not be eaten on Friday," "Wiping your ass with the same hand you used to partake of dinner is evil." These, and all the other trivial discriminatorial distinctions made by churches, synagogues, mosques, and temples around the world are the inventions of Man, not God. I'm not sure I agree with all of this post, but this bit is certainly true - the 'churches' seem to spend a lot of time talking about trivial things. Jesus called it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Jesus called it straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. That phrase was running through my head when I was posting, but I couldn't recall whether Jesus said it, or some later pundit. A very apt description! "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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The same power runs both ways. You can heal and make people ill with it. I'm sure all this "smoking causes cancer" nonsense is actually causing more cancer via suggestion. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: The same power runs both ways. You can heal and make people ill with it. Well, I would say that to make someone ill through (for want of a better phrase) paranormal means is very, very different from the power of prayer. I couldn't ever accept that prayer could be used in this way - to do so would destroy my Faith utterly. Colin Davies wrote: I'm sure all this "smoking causes cancer" nonsense is actually causing more cancer via suggestion. I couldn't disagree more...I've seen the long term effects of smoking firsthand on my grandfather and one of my aunts. What I would say is that as in all things medical, the effects vary widely between individuals and aren't particularly predictable on a case by case basis. I certainly don't feel any urge to take up the habit (though I wouldn't condemn anyone who did)...the only thing I ask is the freedom to enjoy a smoke free environment when travelling, eating out etc. Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch