More about God....
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Christian Graus wrote: If that is true, then there is no God, or He is hiding from us. How does the thought that nobody knows the truth about God imply either one? Another option is that we don't understand, or he doesn't even care what we're up to anymore, if indeed he ever did. Christian Graus wrote: That's not what I am saying. I work with people with whom I disagree about God and I am happy to count them as friends. But that does not mean when they bring up God that I am keen to agree with them. Surely you have friends with whom you disagree on some things ? i think we are in agreement here. I have some very close friends, some of which friendships have started solely from religious discussion. We respectfully disagree quite often, and it does not stop us from discussing things. I was trying to say above that, my view is that no one view of God is the sole truth (I justify this from observing that all humans are flawed, and so it follows...), therefore I have to allow as much input as possible, and likewise will share my thoughts, but not preach them. This last isn't wholly logical, but it gets me by for now:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
brianwelsch wrote: Another option is that we don't understand, or he doesn't even care what we're up to anymore, if indeed he ever did. If we don't understand that's His fault - He made us. And the second option is no different to 'he's hiding from us', at least in terms of my intention. brianwelsch wrote: my view is that no one view of God is the sole truth (I justify this from observing that all humans are flawed, and so it follows...), therefore I have to allow as much input as possible, and likewise will share my thoughts, but not preach them. There is nothing wrong with being willing to consider other thoughts, the alternative is to hold a view which we don't trust enough to be willing to challenge. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I'm not so much suggesting that people from every denomination will get in, as being part of a denomination does not guarentee entry. Neither do I feel does belonging to a denomination imply denial. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
I'm confused - when did I suggest it did ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. Exactly. And, not to trivialize this, but it doesn't start or end with religion either - if i think it's a bad idea to sell bodily fluids on the black market, and you don't, then either i think you are wrong or admit i don't really have an opinion at all. Which doesn't mean i have to kill you, but i *do* have to admit to one or the other, or be a hypocrite. Shog9 ------
Rather hammer futiley at the locked door than just sit and ignore it. Obviously finding a way to get through the locked door would be even better though. - Paul Watson, My Ignorance
Shog9 wrote: if i think it's a bad idea to sell bodily fluids on the black market Shog, you never cease to amaze me... :-D :-D :-D Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... Errr... please return to your regularly scheduled programming. :-O Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
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Simon Walton wrote: It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. (From a website) "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday (Poll of the professional society Sigma Zi to which Three thousand three hundred responded) I always find it funny when people pull this one up. And I question the veracity of their (the source not Simon) data. Not because I disbelieve the existence of God but, because I completed my Masters in Physics in ‘97 while most of my friends went on to get their Ph.D. I can honestly say that 90% of my peer group at the time was very "skeptical" about the existence of God. We had many heated debates at the local dive bars on the very topic. These generally ended with drunken insults and “Gravity Experiments” off the top of the science building of anything we could find that weighed more than 30lbs. The point being, at least to me, is that religious faith is a personal decision. And, something that someone should not feel need to justify. That is why I am always amused to see people trying so hard to convince other people. Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
The fact that you had many heated debates in itself proves something. I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. Chris Austin wrote: Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Only in a dark alley at knife point would I tell what I have studied. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I believe the same is true of doctors (especially in the US). I've read some interesting case studies on the power of prayer in medicine. :) Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschThe same power runs both ways. You can heal and make people ill with it. I'm sure all this "smoking causes cancer" nonsense is actually causing more cancer via suggestion. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... Errr... please return to your regularly scheduled programming. :-O Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... :-) you don't know what you are talking about !! :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Finally! Someone I totally agree with. I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?"
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
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David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. Absolutely - talk is cheap, especially where religion is concerned. It makes me sad that I cannot tell people I am a Christian without explaining what that means, because most people do not know, they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. Too true. Many people who believe that all religions are equal (we all pray to the same God, etc.) either don't belive that there is a God or believe that he is either powerless or uninterested. However, I have a personal salvation from a personal God who cares about me personally. Not only does he have an opinion, I believe that his opinioin is the only one that matters. He is not an impersonal God, he is not powerless and he is not uninterested. For me to say that all religions are equal is paramount to saying that the personal God whom I know has nothing to offer others. This clearly violates the teachings of Christ who desired to share his salvation with the unbelieving world because he had compassion for their condition and saw their souls needs. Having said that, I am all for religions freedom. I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat nor do I want anyone doing this to me. I belive that my beliefs are true as much as everyone else and I feel a need to share those beliefs with those around me because I know the power of my God and the need which only he can satisfy.
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Christian Graus wrote: The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. Too true. Many people who believe that all religions are equal (we all pray to the same God, etc.) either don't belive that there is a God or believe that he is either powerless or uninterested. However, I have a personal salvation from a personal God who cares about me personally. Not only does he have an opinion, I believe that his opinioin is the only one that matters. He is not an impersonal God, he is not powerless and he is not uninterested. For me to say that all religions are equal is paramount to saying that the personal God whom I know has nothing to offer others. This clearly violates the teachings of Christ who desired to share his salvation with the unbelieving world because he had compassion for their condition and saw their souls needs. Having said that, I am all for religions freedom. I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat nor do I want anyone doing this to me. I belive that my beliefs are true as much as everyone else and I feel a need to share those beliefs with those around me because I know the power of my God and the need which only he can satisfy.
Well said. The difference between being willing to inform people you believe they are wrong, and their having that right is exactly what I was on about, and I concur with everything you've said. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Finally! Someone I totally agree with. I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?"
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
David Stone wrote: It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" I'm hoping it's the thought that counts ;P I don't really think God (and I use this term loosly) would mind which day of the week I took for break to worship him. Be it sunday, saturday, friday or any other day of the week. I would assume that such divine entity would have better things to worry about rather than my timing. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704
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David Stone wrote: It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" I'm hoping it's the thought that counts ;P I don't really think God (and I use this term loosly) would mind which day of the week I took for break to worship him. Be it sunday, saturday, friday or any other day of the week. I would assume that such divine entity would have better things to worry about rather than my timing. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704
I'm not discriminating against your choice of which day to worship. I'm saying that there are fundamental differences between the religions of say: Christianity and Islam. See what I mean?
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I share my faith when I get the chance. I just get upset when people cop out of the discussion with that relativistic phrase.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. Absolutely - talk is cheap, especially where religion is concerned. It makes me sad that I cannot tell people I am a Christian without explaining what that means, because most people do not know, they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Most of them already have the wrong idea. Usually from media or past experiences with *David does the little quote fingers thingy*"Christians" they have an incorrect view of true Christians.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Most of them already have the wrong idea. Usually from media or past experiences with *David does the little quote fingers thingy*"Christians" they have an incorrect view of true Christians.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I just didn't know what key to press for the 'quote thingy' :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Yes, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I just didn't know what key to press for the 'quote thingy' :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Oh yeah. It's really easy, you just do: *Your name here does the little quote fingers thingy* :-D
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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The fact that you had many heated debates in itself proves something. I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. Chris Austin wrote: Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Only in a dark alley at knife point would I tell what I have studied. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. For the most part I wholehartly agree. However, I think contemporary sciences are far more data-driven than in the past. This is where I think the divsion takes place for people like many of my classmates. They need to see the verifiable, repeatable, and undisputable data. From those arguments long ago, I learned that those people will not accept religion on faith based arguments. They will have to find their own glimpse of the sublime. Later Chris Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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Christian Graus wrote: The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. Too true. Many people who believe that all religions are equal (we all pray to the same God, etc.) either don't belive that there is a God or believe that he is either powerless or uninterested. However, I have a personal salvation from a personal God who cares about me personally. Not only does he have an opinion, I believe that his opinioin is the only one that matters. He is not an impersonal God, he is not powerless and he is not uninterested. For me to say that all religions are equal is paramount to saying that the personal God whom I know has nothing to offer others. This clearly violates the teachings of Christ who desired to share his salvation with the unbelieving world because he had compassion for their condition and saw their souls needs. Having said that, I am all for religions freedom. I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat nor do I want anyone doing this to me. I belive that my beliefs are true as much as everyone else and I feel a need to share those beliefs with those around me because I know the power of my God and the need which only he can satisfy.
Matt Gullett wrote: I do not want to force my beliefs down anyones throat As disciples of Christ, we are to follow his example. He did not shove his teachings down anyone's throat either.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
I'm not discriminating against your choice of which day to worship. I'm saying that there are fundamental differences between the religions of say: Christianity and Islam. See what I mean?
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Actually all the differences are rather preferation. Who is the official prophet? which animal can't be eaten? how many times a day should you pray? and so on. Put in the shoes of a believer, I would like to think that God is not a QBasic program which sorts out people by their food menu or their shaving habbits. I would prefer to believe that it is the core intentions of the person, his insight, approach and virtue that would grant him an afterlife in heaven rather than his performance of rituals and having prayed 10 minutes before sunset and not 3 minutes later. As a greater entity God should not have the pettiness of man. I think this is what most believers miss. Isaac Sasson, Small time programmer - complainer at large! Sonork ID 100.13704