mosque in South Tower before and during 9-11
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fat_boy wrote:
What I dont get is how the building, being designed to withstand an inpact by a 707 failed in this way. It shouldt have.
The design didn't consider the fireproofing on the steel beams being blown off, which it was.
fat_boy wrote:
I also think that having floor not joined to the skin makes for an immensely weak structure. Itrs a crap design IMO.
Unless you're secretly a structural engineer, your opinion in this matter isn't exactly worth much. You could put any really great design through very extreme conditions and watch it fail and then comment on how crappy the engineers are. Immensely weak structure? I think the towers did a fantastic job considering they had enormous jets flown into them at high speed and were practically hollowed out with fire.
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The buildings were supposedly built to take an impact from a 707, a similar sized plane to those which hit the buildings. The design was poor. Not to tie the floors to the walls properly immensely weakens the structure. But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Almost untouched? It had a tremendous gash in the side, about a quarter of the height of the building. But, like the twin towers, it wasn't the holes that toppled it - it was the fire. The gash lined up with the fuel system in the building, causing a horrific inferno. WTC7 collapsed for the same reason that the twin towers did, unlike the other buildings that failed to collapse.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Unless you're secretly a structural engineer
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Then you should be able to guess at how strong bare steel is when it's been exposed to 500-600 degree temperatures for an hour or so. How many of your buildings could survive an impact like those on 9-11?
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And the building which apparently collapsed, and as the reporter was saying that it had collapsed it was actually visible and clearly standing in the background! And also the lack of any bits of the airplane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon, I googled it and found this pic: http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/pentagon-aerial.jpg[^] Certainly not a big enough hole for an airplane crash, looks more like a small explosion to me.
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
And also the lack of any bits of the airplane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon
:confused: http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html[^]
Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
Certainly not a big enough hole for an airplane crash, looks more like a small explosion to me.
And exactly how big a hole should a fragile aluminium aeroplane make in thick reinforced concrete? Were you expecting the delicate wings to cleave wing-shaped holes right through it? And there was an explosion. Haven't you even seen the security camera footage?
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Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
And the building which apparently collapsed, and as the reporter was saying that it had collapsed it was actually visible and clearly standing in the background!
Yeah, I seen that. :doh:
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Yeah, I seen that.
ZOMG GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!1111
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fat_boy wrote:
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Then you should be able to guess at how strong bare steel is when it's been exposed to 500-600 degree temperatures for an hour or so. How many of your buildings could survive an impact like those on 9-11?
I didnt design any buildings, I used to design brackets and fixings used in stone cladding, so I cant comment. According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours. The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety. However the buildings collapsed in about an hour so there is obviously a faiulre somewhere, either in design or in implementation. Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Almost untouched? It had a tremendous gash in the side, about a quarter of the height of the building. But, like the twin towers, it wasn't the holes that toppled it - it was the fire. The gash lined up with the fuel system in the building, causing a horrific inferno. WTC7 collapsed for the same reason that the twin towers did, unlike the other buildings that failed to collapse.
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I read that the fire in WT7 was not very large and didnt affect many floors. Did you read differently?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
I read that the fire in WT7 was not very large and didnt affect many floors. Did you read differently?
Yeah. This[^] is fairly disjointed, but interesting nonetheless. Not very large fire? The whole front of the building had smoke pouring out of it. Look[^] at it - there's no way that's a small fire affecting few floors.
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I didnt design any buildings, I used to design brackets and fixings used in stone cladding, so I cant comment. According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours. The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety. However the buildings collapsed in about an hour so there is obviously a faiulre somewhere, either in design or in implementation. Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours.
And it would've, if the fireproofing on the steel hadn't been blown off. Some engineers or whatever tested it, and found that the fireproofing that they used was actually quite easily removed by such an event.
fat_boy wrote:
The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety.
It wasn't just losing half its strength, but also the severe temperature gradient across the steel beams that caused the failure. And once it started to collapse, there was no way it was going to remain standing.
fat_boy wrote:
Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Well, I dunno why they did what they did, I've never designed a skyscraper. Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
modified on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 5:23 AM
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fat_boy wrote:
According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours.
And it would've, if the fireproofing on the steel hadn't been blown off. Some engineers or whatever tested it, and found that the fireproofing that they used was actually quite easily removed by such an event.
fat_boy wrote:
The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety.
It wasn't just losing half its strength, but also the severe temperature gradient across the steel beams that caused the failure. And once it started to collapse, there was no way it was going to remain standing.
fat_boy wrote:
Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Well, I dunno why they did what they did, I've never designed a skyscraper. Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
modified on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 5:23 AM
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
Wouldnt be the first time.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Wouldnt be the first time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a commercial jet piloted into a skyscraper at high speeds caused the skyscraper to fall because the engineers didn't bolt the floors to the supporting external tube columns? :confused:
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fat_boy wrote:
Wouldnt be the first time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a commercial jet piloted into a skyscraper at high speeds caused the skyscraper to fall because the engineers didn't bolt the floors to the supporting external tube columns? :confused:
No, it wouldnt be the first time engineer have made serious mistakes. There was the wobbly bridge recently in Lonon for example. The engineers hadnt accounted for the fact that on a swaying object, people start to walk in step, making it sway more. It got so bad people were clinging on, stationary, terrified to move.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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No, it wouldnt be the first time engineer have made serious mistakes. There was the wobbly bridge recently in Lonon for example. The engineers hadnt accounted for the fact that on a swaying object, people start to walk in step, making it sway more. It got so bad people were clinging on, stationary, terrified to move.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
No, it wouldnt be the first time engineer have made serious mistakes. There was the wobbly bridge recently in Lonon for example. The engineers hadnt accounted for the fact that on a swaying object, people start to walk in step, making it sway more. It got so bad people were clinging on, stationary, terrified to move.
Yeah, but they fixed it, and the problem was a lot less simple than bolting a floor to a wall.
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fat_boy wrote:
No, it wouldnt be the first time engineer have made serious mistakes. There was the wobbly bridge recently in Lonon for example. The engineers hadnt accounted for the fact that on a swaying object, people start to walk in step, making it sway more. It got so bad people were clinging on, stationary, terrified to move.
Yeah, but they fixed it, and the problem was a lot less simple than bolting a floor to a wall.
What are you arguning about? Are you trying to tell me engineers dont make mistakes? That things dont fuck up, fall over, break, collapse, or fail in any one of the thousands ways engineered products can do?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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What are you arguning about? Are you trying to tell me engineers dont make mistakes? That things dont fuck up, fall over, break, collapse, or fail in any one of the thousands ways engineered products can do?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
What are you arguning about? Are you trying to tell me engineers dont make mistakes? That things dont f*** up, fall over, break, collapse, or fail in any one of the thousands ways engineered products can do?
I'm not trying to say that engineers don't make mistakes. I'm just trying to avoid blaming them for the buildings collapsing. They're not bungling incompetents.
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fat_boy wrote:
What are you arguning about? Are you trying to tell me engineers dont make mistakes? That things dont f*** up, fall over, break, collapse, or fail in any one of the thousands ways engineered products can do?
I'm not trying to say that engineers don't make mistakes. I'm just trying to avoid blaming them for the buildings collapsing. They're not bungling incompetents.
OK. Starting fomr basics, a product is engineered to be functional given its expected usage. The bridge in London was engineered to take pedestrian traffic at a certain density (giving a figure for the maximum load it can carry). But they didnt count on the slight lateral movement of the bridge being amplified by the nature on the way in which people walk when reacting to a slight lateral movement of what they are walking on. Thus was the product fit for its purpose? No. Therefore the engineers fialed. The WTC buildings were engineered to take an impact from a 707. Given that planes genrally have fule in them one owuld expect the design to handle not only the kinetic effect of the impact but also the thermal effect of the burning fuel. Did the buildings meet this design target when tested? No. Therefore the engineering failed.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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OK. Starting fomr basics, a product is engineered to be functional given its expected usage. The bridge in London was engineered to take pedestrian traffic at a certain density (giving a figure for the maximum load it can carry). But they didnt count on the slight lateral movement of the bridge being amplified by the nature on the way in which people walk when reacting to a slight lateral movement of what they are walking on. Thus was the product fit for its purpose? No. Therefore the engineers fialed. The WTC buildings were engineered to take an impact from a 707. Given that planes genrally have fule in them one owuld expect the design to handle not only the kinetic effect of the impact but also the thermal effect of the burning fuel. Did the buildings meet this design target when tested? No. Therefore the engineering failed.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
The WTC buildings were engineered to take an impact from a 707.
You keep saying that, but, well, see point 1[^].
fat_boy wrote:
Given that planes genrally have fule in them one owuld expect the design to handle not only the kinetic effect of the impact but also the thermal effect of the burning fuel.
Except that it wasn't really the burning fuel that toppled the tower. It was the fires it caused, which were spread widely throughout the tower due to the impact, which also removed the insulation from the steel. Nobody could've predicted such an unusual combination of circumstances, especially not before the techniques to analyse them weren't very far developed.
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fat_boy wrote:
The WTC buildings were engineered to take an impact from a 707.
You keep saying that, but, well, see point 1[^].
fat_boy wrote:
Given that planes genrally have fule in them one owuld expect the design to handle not only the kinetic effect of the impact but also the thermal effect of the burning fuel.
Except that it wasn't really the burning fuel that toppled the tower. It was the fires it caused, which were spread widely throughout the tower due to the impact, which also removed the insulation from the steel. Nobody could've predicted such an unusual combination of circumstances, especially not before the techniques to analyse them weren't very far developed.
Reread the link, it only states that documentation regarding the analysis used could not be found so the statement could not be vefiried. As stated ... a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey ...indicated that the impact of a ... Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Except that it wasn't really the burning fuel that toppled the tower. It was the fires it caused, which were spread widely throughout the tower due to the impact, which also removed the insulation from the steel. Nobody could've predicted such an unusual combination of circumstances, especially not before the techniques to analyse them weren't very far developed.
I could answer this is about 6 different ways, but I'll let you answer it since you know you are talking crap.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Reread the link, it only states that documentation regarding the analysis used could not be found so the statement could not be vefiried. As stated ... a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey ...indicated that the impact of a ... Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Except that it wasn't really the burning fuel that toppled the tower. It was the fires it caused, which were spread widely throughout the tower due to the impact, which also removed the insulation from the steel. Nobody could've predicted such an unusual combination of circumstances, especially not before the techniques to analyse them weren't very far developed.
I could answer this is about 6 different ways, but I'll let you answer it since you know you are talking crap.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
I could answer this is about 6 different ways, but I'll let you answer it since you know you are talking crap.
So, is this an official proclamation that you would've predicted this? You would've sat down and said, "Let's consider what would've happened if a jet was commandeered into the tower. Well, the insulation would obviously be first to go, and the fuel would..." and so on.
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fat_boy wrote:
I could answer this is about 6 different ways, but I'll let you answer it since you know you are talking crap.
So, is this an official proclamation that you would've predicted this? You would've sat down and said, "Let's consider what would've happened if a jet was commandeered into the tower. Well, the insulation would obviously be first to go, and the fuel would..." and so on.
Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
"Let's consider what would've happened if a jet was commandeered into the tower. Well, the insulation would obviously be first to go, and the fuel would..." and so on.
If you were designing a building to survive a plane impact do you suppose the discussion would be very different from that?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
