mosque in South Tower before and during 9-11
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I saw the paper posted by Ravel, but I had heard something different. I had heard it was designed to withstand a 747 size impact (which that paper seems to suggest it wasn't). What I saw on the news afterwards was that it was designed properly, but not executed properly. The problem, as was reported, was with the insulation. Instead of using the insulation in the designs, it was constructed with spray-on insulation. The force of the impact caused a shockwave that literally blew all of the insulation off. This left the structural metal without any heat protection which lead to the weakening of the members and eventually the collapse of the building. But I'm sure there are other reports out there as to the cause of the collapse.
It was designed to withstand the impact of a 707 hitting it. Not a 767 and the fire resulting from it being fully laden with fuel. Contrary to what "super engineer" fat_boy might think, the tools to do that kind of analysis adequately when the Towers were designed did not exist. Considerable advancement has been made in finite element analysis in the intervening years, both from a structural standpoint but what is now becoming known as "multi-physics" where you can analyze many effects combined.
Once you agree to clans, tribes, governments...you've opted for socialism. The rest is just details.
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Riggggghhtt....... Go study civil engineering and come back in five years.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Trollslayer wrote:
Go study civil engineering and come back in five years.
You mean like Youngs modulus of elasticity and polar moments of inertia of I beams? You really are a typical internet fuckwit sometimes: I used to be a structural engineer and designed steel work for buildings in the stone cladding business, Some of the project I wored on included stanstead airport and the broadgate and moorgate developments in london. As I said, I would really like to know how those buldings came down so easilly.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
I shudder to think that the US gov/big business had a hand in it, but I wouldnt put it past the Americans. Nothing is more important than profit to them.
You're losing your touch. Surely you can come up with a more effective troll than this?
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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This was proposed soon after 9/11 and it makes sense. It would explain why the floors pancaked down on each other. What I dont get is how the building, being designed to withstand an inpact by a 707 failed in this way. It shouldt have. I also think that having floor not joined to the skin makes for an immensely weak structure. Itrs a crap design IMO.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Having a degree in engineering and working in destructive testing for several years, the building collapse is as expected. Note that there are many reasons a building will or will not collapse, size of plane, where plane hits, type of construction, etc. Also note I have not done the calculations but have read reports on the collapse and talked to structural engineers.
The buildings were supposedly built to take an impact from a 707, a similar sized plane to those which hit the buildings. The design was poor. Not to tie the floors to the walls properly immensely weakens the structure. But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Oh, hush. No-one wants the facts when they interfere with a good conspiracy fantasy. ;) :-D
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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This was proposed soon after 9/11 and it makes sense. It would explain why the floors pancaked down on each other. What I dont get is how the building, being designed to withstand an inpact by a 707 failed in this way. It shouldt have. I also think that having floor not joined to the skin makes for an immensely weak structure. Itrs a crap design IMO.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
What I dont get is how the building, being designed to withstand an inpact by a 707 failed in this way. It shouldt have.
The design didn't consider the fireproofing on the steel beams being blown off, which it was.
fat_boy wrote:
I also think that having floor not joined to the skin makes for an immensely weak structure. Itrs a crap design IMO.
Unless you're secretly a structural engineer, your opinion in this matter isn't exactly worth much. You could put any really great design through very extreme conditions and watch it fail and then comment on how crappy the engineers are. Immensely weak structure? I think the towers did a fantastic job considering they had enormous jets flown into them at high speed and were practically hollowed out with fire.
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It was designed to withstand the impact of a 707 hitting it. Not a 767 and the fire resulting from it being fully laden with fuel. Contrary to what "super engineer" fat_boy might think, the tools to do that kind of analysis adequately when the Towers were designed did not exist. Considerable advancement has been made in finite element analysis in the intervening years, both from a structural standpoint but what is now becoming known as "multi-physics" where you can analyze many effects combined.
Once you agree to clans, tribes, governments...you've opted for socialism. The rest is just details.
I left structural engineering in 1989, IT pays a lot better, bur I still dont accept that a building designed in the days of paper and pencils to withstand an impact of a 707 should collapse so easilly. It was either a really bad design, or really bad implementation (and bad imnplementation is often the cause of bulding failure). I would also like to know how WTC 7 collapsed when other buldings in the vicinity, more heavilly afected, didnt.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
What I dont get is how the building, being designed to withstand an inpact by a 707 failed in this way. It shouldt have.
The design didn't consider the fireproofing on the steel beams being blown off, which it was.
fat_boy wrote:
I also think that having floor not joined to the skin makes for an immensely weak structure. Itrs a crap design IMO.
Unless you're secretly a structural engineer, your opinion in this matter isn't exactly worth much. You could put any really great design through very extreme conditions and watch it fail and then comment on how crappy the engineers are. Immensely weak structure? I think the towers did a fantastic job considering they had enormous jets flown into them at high speed and were practically hollowed out with fire.
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The buildings were supposedly built to take an impact from a 707, a similar sized plane to those which hit the buildings. The design was poor. Not to tie the floors to the walls properly immensely weakens the structure. But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Almost untouched? It had a tremendous gash in the side, about a quarter of the height of the building. But, like the twin towers, it wasn't the holes that toppled it - it was the fire. The gash lined up with the fuel system in the building, causing a horrific inferno. WTC7 collapsed for the same reason that the twin towers did, unlike the other buildings that failed to collapse.
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Unless you're secretly a structural engineer
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Then you should be able to guess at how strong bare steel is when it's been exposed to 500-600 degree temperatures for an hour or so. How many of your buildings could survive an impact like those on 9-11?
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And the building which apparently collapsed, and as the reporter was saying that it had collapsed it was actually visible and clearly standing in the background! And also the lack of any bits of the airplane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon, I googled it and found this pic: http://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/pentagon-aerial.jpg[^] Certainly not a big enough hole for an airplane crash, looks more like a small explosion to me.
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
And also the lack of any bits of the airplane that supposedly crashed into the pentagon
:confused: http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html[^]
Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
Certainly not a big enough hole for an airplane crash, looks more like a small explosion to me.
And exactly how big a hole should a fragile aluminium aeroplane make in thick reinforced concrete? Were you expecting the delicate wings to cleave wing-shaped holes right through it? And there was an explosion. Haven't you even seen the security camera footage?
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Lloyd Atkinson wrote:
And the building which apparently collapsed, and as the reporter was saying that it had collapsed it was actually visible and clearly standing in the background!
Yeah, I seen that. :doh:
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Yeah, I seen that.
ZOMG GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!1111
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fat_boy wrote:
Guess what... I used to design steel work for buildings.
Then you should be able to guess at how strong bare steel is when it's been exposed to 500-600 degree temperatures for an hour or so. How many of your buildings could survive an impact like those on 9-11?
I didnt design any buildings, I used to design brackets and fixings used in stone cladding, so I cant comment. According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours. The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety. However the buildings collapsed in about an hour so there is obviously a faiulre somewhere, either in design or in implementation. Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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fat_boy wrote:
But how about WT7? How on earth did that collapse? It was almost untouched. A small fire, the impact of bulding debris. Many other buildings suffered similar fates that day without falling down.
Almost untouched? It had a tremendous gash in the side, about a quarter of the height of the building. But, like the twin towers, it wasn't the holes that toppled it - it was the fire. The gash lined up with the fuel system in the building, causing a horrific inferno. WTC7 collapsed for the same reason that the twin towers did, unlike the other buildings that failed to collapse.
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I read that the fire in WT7 was not very large and didnt affect many floors. Did you read differently?
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
I read that the fire in WT7 was not very large and didnt affect many floors. Did you read differently?
Yeah. This[^] is fairly disjointed, but interesting nonetheless. Not very large fire? The whole front of the building had smoke pouring out of it. Look[^] at it - there's no way that's a small fire affecting few floors.
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I didnt design any buildings, I used to design brackets and fixings used in stone cladding, so I cant comment. According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours. The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety. However the buildings collapsed in about an hour so there is obviously a faiulre somewhere, either in design or in implementation. Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours.
And it would've, if the fireproofing on the steel hadn't been blown off. Some engineers or whatever tested it, and found that the fireproofing that they used was actually quite easily removed by such an event.
fat_boy wrote:
The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety.
It wasn't just losing half its strength, but also the severe temperature gradient across the steel beams that caused the failure. And once it started to collapse, there was no way it was going to remain standing.
fat_boy wrote:
Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Well, I dunno why they did what they did, I've never designed a skyscraper. Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
modified on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 5:23 AM
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fat_boy wrote:
According to the link you sent a building is required to withstand a fire for 3 hours.
And it would've, if the fireproofing on the steel hadn't been blown off. Some engineers or whatever tested it, and found that the fireproofing that they used was actually quite easily removed by such an event.
fat_boy wrote:
The article also stated that the steel only lost half its strength at this temperature and thus was within its factor of safety.
It wasn't just losing half its strength, but also the severe temperature gradient across the steel beams that caused the failure. And once it started to collapse, there was no way it was going to remain standing.
fat_boy wrote:
Like I said,, not pinning the floors to the outer shell of the building is throwing away a massive increase in strength which wouldnt have been particularly more difficult to implement. Just a few bolts on each beam would be sufficient.
Well, I dunno why they did what they did, I've never designed a skyscraper. Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
modified on Wednesday, September 15, 2010 5:23 AM
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Ravel H. Joyce wrote:
Presumably they knew what you're saying, otherwise they'd be the shittiest engineers on the planet...
Wouldnt be the first time.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Wouldnt be the first time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a commercial jet piloted into a skyscraper at high speeds caused the skyscraper to fall because the engineers didn't bolt the floors to the supporting external tube columns? :confused:
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fat_boy wrote:
Wouldnt be the first time.
It wouldn't be the first time that a commercial jet piloted into a skyscraper at high speeds caused the skyscraper to fall because the engineers didn't bolt the floors to the supporting external tube columns? :confused:
No, it wouldnt be the first time engineer have made serious mistakes. There was the wobbly bridge recently in Lonon for example. The engineers hadnt accounted for the fact that on a swaying object, people start to walk in step, making it sway more. It got so bad people were clinging on, stationary, terrified to move.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
