Go back to your tin-pot Mussolini-constructed principality, and don't come back!
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viaducting wrote:
Because they can think of better things to spend millions of pounds on
Strange that they never articulate that point.
It's time for a new signature.
"Never"? You have never, never, heard an atheist give an example of something they would rather see money spent on than the Pope's visit? Really? Edit - not my 1-vote. Have a balancing 5.
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"Never"? You have never, never, heard an atheist give an example of something they would rather see money spent on than the Pope's visit? Really? Edit - not my 1-vote. Have a balancing 5.
viaducting wrote:
You have never, never, heard an atheist give an example of something they would rather see money spent on than the Pope's visit? Really?
I was gonna say the same thing. (Personally I think religious types don't like to listen to the shouty atheists because it infringes on their beliefs, so the shutters come down)
"Benjamin is nobody's friend. If Benjamin were an ice cream flavor, he'd be pralines and dick." ~ Garth Algar "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ~ Paul Neal "Red" Adair
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Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
It's the religion
Atheism is no more a religion than not collecting stamps is a hobby.
You missed the point I was making when I said the religion of anti-religion.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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I actually object to the term 'atheist', as it would appear to be predicated on there being a god in whom not to believe. I far prefer to be considered a normal, rational, non-superstitious person.
Good point, well made.:thumbsup:
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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It does seem that a new branch of evangelical atheists have sprung into existence in the last few years. I ceased to believe in god 20 years ago but don't attempt to "convert" anyone who believes in a faith. I think a lot of non-believers get so fed up with people telling them that they should let christ into their lives etc that the reaction is to turn the thing into a conflict. Far easier to step away from the fight in my opinion.
Russell Jones wrote:
It does seem that a new branch of evangelical atheists have sprung into existence in the last few years. I ceased to believe in god 20 years ago but don't attempt to "convert" anyone who believes in a faith. I think a lot of non-believers get so fed up with people telling them that they should let christ into their lives etc that the reaction is to turn the thing into a conflict. Far easier to step away from the fight in my opinion.
I guess the reason they are doing it is to try and break the status quo. I know plenty of people who are not overtly religious (don't go to church etc), but think that they should have 'Christian' beliefs to be a good person. Which of course is nonsense - but because the religious types paint an atheist as a heathen the 'shouty' atheists are redressing the balance. This is of course my own personal opinion, and I have no facts to back up my statements.
"Benjamin is nobody's friend. If Benjamin were an ice cream flavor, he'd be pralines and dick." ~ Garth Algar "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ~ Paul Neal "Red" Adair
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Doesn't a principality have a Prince as head of state?
viaducting wrote:
Doesn't a principality have a Prince as head of state?
It does have. The Prince of Pervsia.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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I actually object to the term 'atheist', as it would appear to be predicated on there being a god in whom not to believe. I far prefer to be considered a normal, rational, non-superstitious person.
Chris C-B wrote:
I far prefer to be considered a normal, rational, non-superstitious person
FTFY, otherwise you would have to provide an accurate definition of normality, and that seems rather complicated. I could add "only God knows what 'normal' means", but, eh, eh, that's pushing paradoxical a bit too far :)
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I do dislike this wishy-washy, mealy-mouthed sentiment. Dawkins should say what he really thinks! :) I agree with him though, why should we stump up millions for a visit by a man who can well afford to pay for his own trip? If the people who believe in his fantasies wish him to come, maybe they could have a whip round. Personally I do not think this country should associate itself with a group that habitually sexually abuses children, then denies it does so, hides away and transfers those who have been discovered doing so rather than reporting them to the authorities, that has no regard for the mental well being of its female members, that acts to vicariously spread HIV and other STDs, that condemns homosexuality as a sin and yet is lead by men who do not have sex (except with children), (Odd, they say that sex with another man is against gods will and also say sex is a gift from god, yet not having sex is the truly unnatural thing to do!), and they have a chief executive who was sieg heiling the Fuhrer as a member of the Hitler Youth. He then insists on the mental corruption of millions by forcing scripture and dogma and cant down the throats of children before those children have a chance to grow wise enough to make a choice. He should be arrested for crimes against humanity.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
I hope you are talking only about the Pope&Co, and not about Catholics in general. I am involved in the Church activities, and I can more than assure you that the people who are really into catholic religion (in my area) do not care about the Pope, and that's the least we can say. Priests also have "cousins", "maids", "secretaries" or "friends" living at their places with them; plus the Church relies at 90% on females today (again in my area), so they won't despise them. The Pope is a human elected by humans and just like in any other company or government, there are struggles for power. I personally don't think he is better or poorer than any other government member anywhere. As for the crimes you are talking about: I won't stop believing in God because humans misused religion in the 10+ last centuries, and because the bunch of clowns in the Vatican still think they have been chosen by God and act alike. I second what Pete says in his posts: what you are telling is about as populist as anything you can read in the tabloids, and IMHO exaggeration never brings much to a debate.
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viaducting wrote:
Doesn't a principality have a Prince as head of state?
It does have. The Prince of Pervsia.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
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"Never"? You have never, never, heard an atheist give an example of something they would rather see money spent on than the Pope's visit? Really? Edit - not my 1-vote. Have a balancing 5.
No afraid not; maybe I live too sheltered a life. ;) I think the point I was trying to make was more that the militant atheists seem always to be making attacks on people, which is largely very negative. If they have a positive message then it either does not get made by them or does not get reported. [edit]thanks for the 5, but I consider the 1-votes as merely an opinion from someone who is less able to articulate their views than someone like yourself.[/edit]
It's time for a new signature.
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Indeed he is. He's as hypocritical as those he attacks. His stance is that religious types are all zealots and bigots, and he's just as bad. The problem is, he's more articulate.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
Ooh someone 1'ed Mr Wabbit! Have a five to make it better. :)
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H
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No afraid not; maybe I live too sheltered a life. ;) I think the point I was trying to make was more that the militant atheists seem always to be making attacks on people, which is largely very negative. If they have a positive message then it either does not get made by them or does not get reported. [edit]thanks for the 5, but I consider the 1-votes as merely an opinion from someone who is less able to articulate their views than someone like yourself.[/edit]
It's time for a new signature.
To me the point is that it is possible to live a loving, moral, caring life without reference to, or indeed a need for, any external supernatural being. Morals don't have to be imposed on you from outside, by following the myths and legends of 2-3000 year old nomadic herdsmen. It is quite possible prevent yourself from going around murdering, raping and looting without the fear of something unpleasant happening to you in the afterlife.
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No afraid not; maybe I live too sheltered a life. ;) I think the point I was trying to make was more that the militant atheists seem always to be making attacks on people, which is largely very negative. If they have a positive message then it either does not get made by them or does not get reported. [edit]thanks for the 5, but I consider the 1-votes as merely an opinion from someone who is less able to articulate their views than someone like yourself.[/edit]
It's time for a new signature.
It got my 5 as well. Oh well, I also seem to have attracted the univoters - I don't mind in this case. It's entertaining. :-D
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
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Dalek Dave wrote:
He then insists on the mental corruption of millions by forcing scripture and dogma and cant down the throats of children before those children have a chance to grow wise enough to make a choice
I was at a niece's first communion recently. It disgusted me. Forcing 7 year old kids to go through those rituals is just not right. Add to that the fact that during this brainwashing, the priest said something to the effect that if you don't go to mass you'll starve yourself (of gods blah blah blah). Way to go, threatening 7 year old kids with stavation!
Pete
Peter Mulholland wrote:
Forcing 7 year old kids to go through those rituals is just not right.
7 is too young, first communion is usually 9+. There is nowhere written that kids must be "forced" to do their communions. If they don't feel like it, let them decide later. (Unfortunately, religion is no cure to parental stupidity.) Remember that these "traditions" have been edicted when life expectancy was about 20-year-old, which is why most of these ceremonies are done with children. Plus, people wanted to get God's protection as early as possible.
Peter Mulholland wrote:
if you don't go to mass you'll starve yourself (of gods blah blah blah)
Utterly 16th century belief and way of preaching. I think most of Catholics know that they don't "risk" anything by not going to mass. They certainly miss the point of being a community, but they won't grill in hell :) I am quite surprised at the stereotypes that some people have about religious people; just as if the mere fact of being religious would decerebrate one. We are not all Pope's arse-lickers, and fortunately our belief in God did not turned away our ability to be objective and to criticize the way our religion is manipulated by some.
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I'm guessing that this will get punted to the SoapBox or BackRoom pretty soon though it got my 5. :-)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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I hope you are talking only about the Pope&Co, and not about Catholics in general. I am involved in the Church activities, and I can more than assure you that the people who are really into catholic religion (in my area) do not care about the Pope, and that's the least we can say. Priests also have "cousins", "maids", "secretaries" or "friends" living at their places with them; plus the Church relies at 90% on females today (again in my area), so they won't despise them. The Pope is a human elected by humans and just like in any other company or government, there are struggles for power. I personally don't think he is better or poorer than any other government member anywhere. As for the crimes you are talking about: I won't stop believing in God because humans misused religion in the 10+ last centuries, and because the bunch of clowns in the Vatican still think they have been chosen by God and act alike. I second what Pete says in his posts: what you are telling is about as populist as anything you can read in the tabloids, and IMHO exaggeration never brings much to a debate.
My Ire is directed solely at the Power Structure that runs the Protection Racket that is Organised Religion, not to the poor people forced into it.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
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To me the point is that it is possible to live a loving, moral, caring life without reference to, or indeed a need for, any external supernatural being. Morals don't have to be imposed on you from outside, by following the myths and legends of 2-3000 year old nomadic herdsmen. It is quite possible prevent yourself from going around murdering, raping and looting without the fear of something unpleasant happening to you in the afterlife.
viaducting wrote:
it is possible to live a loving, moral, caring life without reference to, or indeed a need for, any external supernatural being
Well, this is not so simple. I mean, of course it is possible. But beliefs in God(s) come from a time where you could chop the head off someone who you did not agree with, and the supernatural fear brought by religion and almighty God(s) were a good way to calm people down (or to use them for religious wars, granted). Today, in our occidental cultures, I think that what you think is true. But then not for everybody and not in everyplace. And a lot of people are moral because they were taught as such by their parents when they were kids, e.g. this is also some kind of "forcing". What people are seeking into religion today has nothing to do with fear of not going to heaven after death, and that is what most people bashing about religion forgets. They still see religious people as brainless beings who think almighty God(s) can come and save them. That's completely missing the point, IMHO.
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My Ire is directed solely at the Power Structure that runs the Protection Racket that is Organised Religion, not to the poor people forced into it.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
OK, then I am with you. Just for the record, I was forced into it, then quit, and came back to it as a grown-up, when I could sort it up between the Power Structure and the real message. And what we are doing on our local scale has truly nothing to do with the Organised Religion you mentioned.
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viaducting wrote:
it is possible to live a loving, moral, caring life without reference to, or indeed a need for, any external supernatural being
Well, this is not so simple. I mean, of course it is possible. But beliefs in God(s) come from a time where you could chop the head off someone who you did not agree with, and the supernatural fear brought by religion and almighty God(s) were a good way to calm people down (or to use them for religious wars, granted). Today, in our occidental cultures, I think that what you think is true. But then not for everybody and not in everyplace. And a lot of people are moral because they were taught as such by their parents when they were kids, e.g. this is also some kind of "forcing". What people are seeking into religion today has nothing to do with fear of not going to heaven after death, and that is what most people bashing about religion forgets. They still see religious people as brainless beings who think almighty God(s) can come and save them. That's completely missing the point, IMHO.
Rage wrote:
Well, this is not so simple.
Actually, it is. What is better, living by non-religious morals based on what makes for a stable, peaceful society in the 21st Century, or living by a massively-outdated moral code invented by primitive herdsmen of the kind that would have you stoning someone for growing two different types of plants in one field? I know what I'd rather follow.
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Ooh someone 1'ed Mr Wabbit! Have a five to make it better. :)
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H
Why, thankee sirra.
I have CDO, it's OCD with the letters in the right order; just as they ruddy well should be
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads