Fire-fighers
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I Agree (although I am not a fellow Brit), a 40% payrise is absurd. However, I am sure their wages are too low right now, considering the job and all the riscs and dangers... How much salary would you want to do the fire fighting job? Some jobs just cannot be appreciated enough. -------------------------------------------------- If my messages appear curt, I apologize. I try to be brief to save your time as well as mine. --------------------------------------------------
From what I understand, they're currently after a raise from about £20k (which isn't a bad wage) to £30k (which is about $30k up to $50k for any Americans reading) -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
Apparently they will now settle for 16%, the govt should give that I think - it's less than 50% of the original request. Things I didn't know about firefighters till today: 70 people apply for each 1 position - they really wanted those jobs, even though they knew the pay They get free food at work - reducing costs They get housing subsidies. They work the equivalent of 3x8 hour days a week. The above facts do change my opinion a little I must say. As for the hoaxers calling in last night - they should be faced with the families of the people who die during these strikes to apologise. Maybe then they would stop wasting valuable resources when the country needs them most.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
Ray Hayes wrote: What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? OK so kill me I'm not a Brit. <sarcasm> Is fire capable of burning anywhere in the UK except laboratories. :-D </sarcasm> <edit> OK so shoot me, I'm completely incapable of ending an HTML tag. </edit> Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
I think it's disgusting, holding the country to ransom like this. Yesterday, a BBC poll showed around 50% of people supported the strike. Today, after 3 deaths AND HUNDREDS of hoax calls, support has dropped to 30%. They have blown it already. Call me cynical, but if the hoax callers have nothing at all to do with the fire-service then I will be VERY surprised. 40% is ridiculous - the government should rightly call their bluff, as I think the fire-fighters are digging their own graves with this strike (as well as the graves of innocent people - no industrial dispute ios worth even a single life). If they got 40% it would open the floodgates - there are plenty of other deserving professions - nurses, teachers, etc. etc. The government should also allow the military to use existing fire-engines AND striking fire-fighters should not be allowed access to fire-stations and their resources. The engines belong to the public, not the bloody FB union. People should remember 1978 - the "winter of discontent" was kicked off by the tanker-drivers forcing through a 12% pay-rise, which opened the floodgates for the entire public sector. The resulting strikes caused mayhem - from rubbish not being collected, to the dead going unburied, and if eventually resulted in the downfall of the then Labout government. The fact that the fire-fighter are trying to capitalize on what happenned in NYC on 9/11 is sickening - the whole thing stinks. I am not saying they don't deserve more money, but their inflated claim and bully-boy tactics belong in the 1970s. Once public support crumbles (and it will), they are going to look pretty stupid. Let us not also forget how popular a job of fire-fighter is - people are queueing up to fill any vacancies (one area had thousands of applicants for just a few positions), and if conditions were that bad then the opposite would be happenning. I just hope the union leaders can sleep at night - if they don't have blood on their hands already, they soon will have.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
Whilst I think the Government is under-valuing the fire service (along with the Doctors, Nurses, Police and Teachers), I'm more concerned with the way the media is portraying these strikes. All the headlines are leading with the deaths, but there is nothing to indicate that these people would have survived if a regular fire crew had attended. People have the right to stand up for what they believe, it's only a shame that by doing this they are made out to be the bad guys. 40% does seem a lot, but how much money would you want for risking you life everyday. We have lots of fat cat bosses who would think nothing of giving themselves 40%. Perhaps if the government had a fairer taxation policy then we could afford to give the essential services the funding they require. Michael Life’s not a song. Life isn’t bliss. Life is just this. It’s living. -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once more, with feeling
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Whilst I think the Government is under-valuing the fire service (along with the Doctors, Nurses, Police and Teachers), I'm more concerned with the way the media is portraying these strikes. All the headlines are leading with the deaths, but there is nothing to indicate that these people would have survived if a regular fire crew had attended. People have the right to stand up for what they believe, it's only a shame that by doing this they are made out to be the bad guys. 40% does seem a lot, but how much money would you want for risking you life everyday. We have lots of fat cat bosses who would think nothing of giving themselves 40%. Perhaps if the government had a fairer taxation policy then we could afford to give the essential services the funding they require. Michael Life’s not a song. Life isn’t bliss. Life is just this. It’s living. -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Once more, with feeling
Well unfortunately we are not living in a country that has a fair taxation policy - and we are probably never likely to be (unfortunately... no-one wants to see a fairer taxation policy more than me). In a perfect world, the fire-fighters would get a better wage along with all the other (just as) deserving professions. For example, did you know that more teachers have been killed (on school premises) in the last 10 years than fire-fighters? Nurses and doctors regularly suffer physical abuse whilst going about their jobs too. Don't forget that there are some perks to being a fire-fighter too, which has to count for something. Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but when it means putting the lives of innocent people at risk then I have a problem with it. The Police aren't allowed to strike for just this very reason and I am starting to think that this rule should be extended to cover the fire-fighters and paramedics too.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Well unfortunately we are not living in a country that has a fair taxation policy - and we are probably never likely to be (unfortunately... no-one wants to see a fairer taxation policy more than me). In a perfect world, the fire-fighters would get a better wage along with all the other (just as) deserving professions. For example, did you know that more teachers have been killed (on school premises) in the last 10 years than fire-fighters? Nurses and doctors regularly suffer physical abuse whilst going about their jobs too. Don't forget that there are some perks to being a fire-fighter too, which has to count for something. Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but when it means putting the lives of innocent people at risk then I have a problem with it. The Police aren't allowed to strike for just this very reason and I am starting to think that this rule should be extended to cover the fire-fighters and paramedics too.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
In a perfect world the able bodied kids on the dole queue would be working and the country would be rich enough to send youngsters to university free, and pay social services like teachers, fire-fighters, etc, properly.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
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In a perfect world the able bodied kids on the dole queue would be working and the country would be rich enough to send youngsters to university free, and pay social services like teachers, fire-fighters, etc, properly.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
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Exactly. However, as soon as anyone asks for the public to actually pay more taxes to fund this, people freak out! Perhaps years of Thatcherism has made too greedy for our own good! :eek: :eek:
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
True, but if only the kids on the dole would get jobs the rest of us, and them, could pay lower taxes and still have a richer country. :) In a perfect world...
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
And when there aren't enough firefighters because the pay is so low ? There was an interesting program about house prices a month ago- the most extreme example was a firefighter down south who had a 4 hour drive so he travelled at weekends when on nightshift and just wandred round the town centre during the day ! One of the reasons this trouble has arisen is that when the last strike was over, a promise was given that rises firefighters pay would relate to police officers rises, and that stopped very quickly. The whole cycle started again........ Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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True, but if only the kids on the dole would get jobs the rest of us, and them, could pay lower taxes and still have a richer country. :) In a perfect world...
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
Unemployment in the UK is very, very low - in the area I live, it is only the unemployable that are out of work. There are probably more jobs than there are people to fill them, so I don't see how this would solve the countries problems (actually it's a great argument for more immigration! ha ha ha). The only way to ensure our public servants get a better wage is to either pay more taxes, or divert existing funds. Either way it'll cost somone - and that's the problem - no-one wants to foot the bill.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Well unfortunately we are not living in a country that has a fair taxation policy - and we are probably never likely to be (unfortunately... no-one wants to see a fairer taxation policy more than me). In a perfect world, the fire-fighters would get a better wage along with all the other (just as) deserving professions. For example, did you know that more teachers have been killed (on school premises) in the last 10 years than fire-fighters? Nurses and doctors regularly suffer physical abuse whilst going about their jobs too. Don't forget that there are some perks to being a fire-fighter too, which has to count for something. Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but when it means putting the lives of innocent people at risk then I have a problem with it. The Police aren't allowed to strike for just this very reason and I am starting to think that this rule should be extended to cover the fire-fighters and paramedics too.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but when it means putting the lives of innocent people at risk then I have a problem with it. Well said, but can you suggest an alternative for the strike. Usually, a strike is (or should be) a last resort. And unfortunately, it seems only a strike that bothers people and thus government seems to generate the 'goodwill' to do something about the demands and worries the strikers have. To fix things before they get out of hand: get a good negotiator in there, give them a substantial wage increase (but nowhere near 40%) and try to figure out ways to make their job easier, listen to their worries and do something about it. That might be a more practical solution. To create a better world, one should always start with oneself. -------------------------------------------------- If my messages appear curt, I apologize. I try to be brief to save your time as well as mine. --------------------------------------------------
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Unemployment in the UK is very, very low - in the area I live, it is only the unemployable that are out of work. There are probably more jobs than there are people to fill them, so I don't see how this would solve the countries problems (actually it's a great argument for more immigration! ha ha ha). The only way to ensure our public servants get a better wage is to either pay more taxes, or divert existing funds. Either way it'll cost somone - and that's the problem - no-one wants to foot the bill.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: it is only the unemployable that are out of work I feel for them. I am working in the South East, and I can't believe the huge volume of jobs available at the job centres. No good for professionals mostly, but I'm talking more about the 16 year olds who leave school and join the dole queue as an easy way out of life's responsibilities. If they took these jobs even part time and studied in the evenings their own lives would have much more meaning.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Standing up for what you believe in is all well and good, but when it means putting the lives of innocent people at risk then I have a problem with it. Well said, but can you suggest an alternative for the strike. Usually, a strike is (or should be) a last resort. And unfortunately, it seems only a strike that bothers people and thus government seems to generate the 'goodwill' to do something about the demands and worries the strikers have. To fix things before they get out of hand: get a good negotiator in there, give them a substantial wage increase (but nowhere near 40%) and try to figure out ways to make their job easier, listen to their worries and do something about it. That might be a more practical solution. To create a better world, one should always start with oneself. -------------------------------------------------- If my messages appear curt, I apologize. I try to be brief to save your time as well as mine. --------------------------------------------------
I think they have been closer to a deal than any side wishes to let on - and I think this strike could have been avoided had they carried on talking. However, going on strike is a MASSIVE risk to take - especially when people could die as a result of it. Without public support, they will never get anywhere near what they want. I think they have already taken this too far. They are less than 24 hours into this dispute and already public opinion is waning and this support is crucial. If the public are behind you, then you usually end up getting want you want. Once opinion polls start showing the union that they battle for hearts and minds is lost, they will be back to the negotiating table... if there's one thing this government is actually any good at, it's manipulating the media to put a favourable "spin" on something...
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
Even if I'm not Brit (and not your fellow ;P), I think Firemen do the most gallant work, saving lives at the risk of theirs. They deserve the respect of the Nation. I don't know if 40% is a big payrise ot if their present salary is miserable, but generally Firemen are responsible people, so I woulnd't be surprized the second choice is the good one.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral. Antoine de Saint-Exupery (1900-1944)
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
Ray Hayes wrote: Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Its stupid, you can't ask for a 40% pay rise and expect people to think thats okay. I do think they should do somthing about the pay structure though, that it seems a guy who has done the job for 15 years earns the same as someone whon has done it for a 1 year.
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
There does seem to be a bit of a plague of industrial action at the moment. 40% is far too high a demand, I don't understand the point in even asking for it. A far better strategy would be to seek some kind of consistent payment structure, such that the current position can never repeat itself (i.e. firefighters being undervalued). However, if that's the case then I would also argue that a change in work practices has to be expected. If firefighters are to receive a professional-style wage then I would expect greater utilisation etc. The industrial action I have the biggest problem with was the recent tube strikes. Tube drivers already get around £25-30k. As far as I can see they only drive one way, they don't have to make any turnings etc. I accept that there is a fairly high chance that each driver will be involved with some kind of suicide attempt on a regular basis, but come on. -- Paul "If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." - David Brent, from "The Office" MS Messenger: paul@oobaloo.co.uk Sonork: 100.22446
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
I basically agree with you. They can't be allowed to win a 40% payrise as they will immediately be followed by all public service workers. I think the three deaths are being blown out of proportion as apparently this is a pretty typical toll per day, and in fact fatal road traffic accidents where down on the average last night. I think what firefighters and other public service workers have to face up to is several things. 1. These are vocational jobs, not everyone could do them, but at the same time this isn't a reason to be paid the earth. As has been pointed out several times over the last few days, there are no vacancies for fire fighters people want to do this job ! 2. Make inflated wage claims when times are good ! Public sector workers may be paid less be they at least have greater job security than those in the private sector. I know many people (including myself !) who have had to take pay cuts both last year and this year. I would love an 11% rise over two years !! 3. If you want professional wages you need to work professional hours. As an example I work 37.5 hours a week, I also do at least two hours per night and generally four to five hours over a weekend. ...also... How much does Andy Gilchrist get paid ? I bet he won't be going short over Christmas whilst the people he represent, by that time could be out of pocket by about two weeks wages. ...I'm beginning to rant so I'll stop !... :omg:
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Easy - set fire to their mothers houses and see how long the strike lasts. If you're involved in a life saving service, you should find ways to negotiate for what is reasonable without endangering lives. Simple as that. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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What do fellow Brits think about this fire-fighters strike for a 40% payrise? I'm against strikes at the best of times, but in light of the 3 deaths on the first night of the 48 hour strike I was totally shocked to see the next three scheduled strikes are EIGHT-DAYS long! Almost no fire-fighter cover until Christmas (at a time of year when more and more people are going to be switching up/on their heating (more). Coming from an Army background, I understand that the Army forces providing cover are not as well trained as regular fire-brigade (and worse, the "jolly-green-giants" they use are design for war-time fires.. e.g. stopping fires from spreading rather than putting out fires). Any thoughts? Imagine if they win, who will be the next union to demand 40%+ payrises? If it happens, I'm sure we'll return to the dark days of the 70's again! Regards, Ray
There is no doubt they do an important job . But they knew the pay rates when they started the job , so apart from a few percent extra to bring them back into line with other workers what do they deserve ? So they cannot live on the wages ? welcome to the real world ! The average wage in the UK cannot afford the average house , firemen are not a special case . Danger ? what danger ?More people die on building sites .So there was a tradgedy in New York , why should UK firemen get extra money as a result ? If the Gulf War II starts do the armies of the rest of the world deserve more money ? The plain fact is that whilst they do a vital job , the job requires little training compared to many other jobs , it is not especially dangerous , and they get to retire on 75% of wages aged 50 . Oh , and UK firemen are the highest paid in Europe . They were offered 11% over 2 years , at a time when the average is about 2% or less . Yes in aperfect world everyone would have lots , but it aint perfect and I can think of other more deserving groups of people where I want MY tax money spent.