Tolerance (kind of a religion topic) [modified]
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So, couple weeks ago they were talking about the mosque or whatever name they want to give it near ground zero. At some point (even though I'm not american) don't feel 100% comfortable of building it there, even if they can bring evidence of previous sites like this inside the towers or close to them. The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag. A group of muslims declared war to the west, and don't say "because it's only a group of them we can't think of everyone the same", well, it happens that way, the US started a war with Iraq, many americans don't support it, but if an american goes outside the US and brings up the subject he/she will be pointed as guilty, as a killer, etc even if he/she doesn't supports the war, it's the same. They talk about how this place will represent tolerance between faiths and also I support the idea of freedom, if they want to build it, let them do it, but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it? will they show their tolerance to others if someones does that? will they respect others? I bet they won't. Muslims feel they have the right to burn the american flag (or any other flag) or the bible or the torah without consequences, it's ok to do it because they are demanding respect, but if an an american burns their quran is wrong and extremism is used to kill americans on retaliation. It's ok for them to send home made missiles to the jewish cities close to Palestine, missiles that actually have killed people, but if Israel decides to use their army to stop this after months and months of bombing and many killed, then is wrong and Israel is a mass murderer. Where is the tolerance that muslims are saying, why if they can't follow what they're preaching others should be tolerant to them?, I'm sure we don't share the same beliefs, but because we don't do it should I take a gun and kill you? burn your car? put a sign where everyone can see it with offensive phrases against your faith or beliefs? I mean, it's ok for them to do it, why can't we do the same against them? I can bring up many more examples of their "tolerance"
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car,
Gonzoox wrote:
The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag.
Here's the issue, as far as I've seen most residents of NYC couldn't give two shits, as the Muslims are already there, they're just building a religious center to replace a building they've been using. Most of it is coming from far away from anything that happened, and at least some of it is coming from people who weren't aware that Muslims existed before 9/11. If you can show me that the group standing behind this project is responsible in any actual way for any of the actions that you're labeling them with, then go ahead, bitch away about it. Otherwise we would be overreacting in the exact same manner as the twats who got up in a bunch over the lone moron who was going to burn the Koran. The whole point being we aren't them, and as such should not stoop to whatever levels they do.
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Gonzoox wrote:
The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag.
Here's the issue, as far as I've seen most residents of NYC couldn't give two shits, as the Muslims are already there, they're just building a religious center to replace a building they've been using. Most of it is coming from far away from anything that happened, and at least some of it is coming from people who weren't aware that Muslims existed before 9/11. If you can show me that the group standing behind this project is responsible in any actual way for any of the actions that you're labeling them with, then go ahead, bitch away about it. Otherwise we would be overreacting in the exact same manner as the twats who got up in a bunch over the lone moron who was going to burn the Koran. The whole point being we aren't them, and as such should not stoop to whatever levels they do.
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That's the point, it's others telling New Yorkers what to do.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
Yep, and nobody tells us what to do. Ok, so they tell us what to do all the time... And we tell them to #%*( off :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Yep, and nobody tells us what to do. Ok, so they tell us what to do all the time... And we tell them to #%*( off :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Yep, and nobody tells us what to do. Ok, so they tell us what to do all the time... And we tell them to #%*( off :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Gonzoox wrote:
if they want to build it, let them do it, but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it?
There's already a strip club in the area... Don't know exactly how close.
Gonzoox wrote:
Muslims feel they have the right to burn the american flag (or any other flag) or the bible or the torah without consequences, it's ok to do it because they are demanding respect, but if an an american burns their quran is wrong and extremism is used to kill americans on retaliation.
Flags and religious texts are symbols, as is the act of burning them. Whether it's "ok" or not depends on the context. If you're burning a flag to convince people that the country is evil and needs to be destroyed, you're an #%&*#. If you're burning it to protest certain policies, it's a political statement. Same goes for religious texts. The key is that even if doing it is a #%(*& move, you do have the RIGHT to do it. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. The government won't lock you up for it (At least not in the US), but you're still going to piss people off.
Gonzoox wrote:
Where is the tolerance that muslims are saying, why if they can't follow what they're preaching others should be tolerant to them?, I'm sure we don't share the same beliefs, but because we don't do it should I take a gun and kill you? burn your car? put a sign where everyone can see it with offensive phrases against your faith or beliefs? I mean, it's ok for them to do it, why can't we do the same against them?
You've hit the nail on the head, here. It's a double-standard, and I agree that it's stupid. As the creators of South Park said, either everything's ok or nothing is. Sure, it's a silly show, but I respect them for NEVER pulling their punches, and going after everyone, no matter how controversial. So why can't we do the same? We can. If enough of us really thought that was the answer, we could bomb the entire region back to the stone age. Of course, that would have consequences too, just like the World Trade Center attacks led to those fun little wars in the middle east, a move like that would turn the rest of the world against us. Could Al Qaeda's actions potentially spawn an anti-Islam terrorist group in the US?
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Ok, I've ranted enough...
No you haven't. I've seen you rant, and this ain't ranting. This is just telling the truth.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
Wow... I expected a little debate here... All of this agreement in the Back Room is kinda creepy... Oh well, give it a day... fat_boy will chime in and blame it all on "climate cultists," and CSS will claim it's all a conspiracy and that Ron Paul will save us from damnation. Then we'll be back to the status quo.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Wow... I expected a little debate here... All of this agreement in the Back Room is kinda creepy... Oh well, give it a day... fat_boy will chime in and blame it all on "climate cultists," and CSS will claim it's all a conspiracy and that Ron Paul will save us from damnation. Then we'll be back to the status quo.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Then we'll be back to the status quo.
3 chord heaven!
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H
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So, couple weeks ago they were talking about the mosque or whatever name they want to give it near ground zero. At some point (even though I'm not american) don't feel 100% comfortable of building it there, even if they can bring evidence of previous sites like this inside the towers or close to them. The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag. A group of muslims declared war to the west, and don't say "because it's only a group of them we can't think of everyone the same", well, it happens that way, the US started a war with Iraq, many americans don't support it, but if an american goes outside the US and brings up the subject he/she will be pointed as guilty, as a killer, etc even if he/she doesn't supports the war, it's the same. They talk about how this place will represent tolerance between faiths and also I support the idea of freedom, if they want to build it, let them do it, but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it? will they show their tolerance to others if someones does that? will they respect others? I bet they won't. Muslims feel they have the right to burn the american flag (or any other flag) or the bible or the torah without consequences, it's ok to do it because they are demanding respect, but if an an american burns their quran is wrong and extremism is used to kill americans on retaliation. It's ok for them to send home made missiles to the jewish cities close to Palestine, missiles that actually have killed people, but if Israel decides to use their army to stop this after months and months of bombing and many killed, then is wrong and Israel is a mass murderer. Where is the tolerance that muslims are saying, why if they can't follow what they're preaching others should be tolerant to them?, I'm sure we don't share the same beliefs, but because we don't do it should I take a gun and kill you? burn your car? put a sign where everyone can see it with offensive phrases against your faith or beliefs? I mean, it's ok for them to do it, why can't we do the same against them? I can bring up many more examples of their "tolerance"
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car,
It's curious how the same people saying "Yes, they have a right to build a mosque, but they shouldn't" are the ones who were defending the proposed Quran burning because it was "his right". I mean, look at it from the perspective of pure self-interest of the average American - building a mosque in NYC isn't going to create any harm (except maybe misplaced heartbreak?) but burning Qurans would have led to more violence, especially against Americans.
Cheers, विक्रम (Got my troika of CCCs!) After all is said and done, much is said and little is done.
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So, couple weeks ago they were talking about the mosque or whatever name they want to give it near ground zero. At some point (even though I'm not american) don't feel 100% comfortable of building it there, even if they can bring evidence of previous sites like this inside the towers or close to them. The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag. A group of muslims declared war to the west, and don't say "because it's only a group of them we can't think of everyone the same", well, it happens that way, the US started a war with Iraq, many americans don't support it, but if an american goes outside the US and brings up the subject he/she will be pointed as guilty, as a killer, etc even if he/she doesn't supports the war, it's the same. They talk about how this place will represent tolerance between faiths and also I support the idea of freedom, if they want to build it, let them do it, but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it? will they show their tolerance to others if someones does that? will they respect others? I bet they won't. Muslims feel they have the right to burn the american flag (or any other flag) or the bible or the torah without consequences, it's ok to do it because they are demanding respect, but if an an american burns their quran is wrong and extremism is used to kill americans on retaliation. It's ok for them to send home made missiles to the jewish cities close to Palestine, missiles that actually have killed people, but if Israel decides to use their army to stop this after months and months of bombing and many killed, then is wrong and Israel is a mass murderer. Where is the tolerance that muslims are saying, why if they can't follow what they're preaching others should be tolerant to them?, I'm sure we don't share the same beliefs, but because we don't do it should I take a gun and kill you? burn your car? put a sign where everyone can see it with offensive phrases against your faith or beliefs? I mean, it's ok for them to do it, why can't we do the same against them? I can bring up many more examples of their "tolerance"
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car,
Gonzoox wrote:
The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag
A very small group of terrorists attacked the US. They were muslim. And some people will be offended by the "ground zero mosque" because they ignorantly conflate al queda with all muslims. I see no reason to accomodate that ignorance. No, it's not just like an invading army planting the flag. Islam didn't blow up the WTC, al queda did. Islam is not a county, it is not monolithic and al queda is not it's representative.
Gonzoox wrote:
and don't say "because it's only a group of them we can't think of everyone the same",
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Gonzoox wrote:
well, it happens that way
Yes, ignorance abounds.
Gonzoox wrote:
the US started a war with Iraq, many americans don't support it, but if an american goes outside the US and brings up the subject he/she will be pointed as guilty, as a killer, etc even if he/she doesn't supports the war, it's the same.
That is true. But the US is a country and, as a citizen, others will hold me responsible for the acts of the county, whether I personally supported then or not. Islam is a religion, not a country. Just because a handful of terrorist who happen to be muslim attacked the US does not make all muslims throughout the world complicit in that act.
Gonzoox wrote:
but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it? will they show their tolerance to others if someones does that? will they respect others? I bet they won't.
Who exactly is this 'they' you are talking about? If you are talking about the specific community of muslims in lower manhatten, then I believe that they will be undisturbed by a titty bar in their midst.
Gonzoox wrote:
It's ok for them to send home made missiles to the jewish cities close to Palestine, missiles that actually have killed people, but if Israel decides to use their army to
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Gonzoox wrote:
The towers were attacked by muslims, extremists but muslims, so putting a muslim symbol close to ground zero would mean to many americans and others who lost their dear ones there, an offense, like after an invasion where the victorious country raises its flag
A very small group of terrorists attacked the US. They were muslim. And some people will be offended by the "ground zero mosque" because they ignorantly conflate al queda with all muslims. I see no reason to accomodate that ignorance. No, it's not just like an invading army planting the flag. Islam didn't blow up the WTC, al queda did. Islam is not a county, it is not monolithic and al queda is not it's representative.
Gonzoox wrote:
and don't say "because it's only a group of them we can't think of everyone the same",
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Gonzoox wrote:
well, it happens that way
Yes, ignorance abounds.
Gonzoox wrote:
the US started a war with Iraq, many americans don't support it, but if an american goes outside the US and brings up the subject he/she will be pointed as guilty, as a killer, etc even if he/she doesn't supports the war, it's the same.
That is true. But the US is a country and, as a citizen, others will hold me responsible for the acts of the county, whether I personally supported then or not. Islam is a religion, not a country. Just because a handful of terrorist who happen to be muslim attacked the US does not make all muslims throughout the world complicit in that act.
Gonzoox wrote:
but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it? will they show their tolerance to others if someones does that? will they respect others? I bet they won't.
Who exactly is this 'they' you are talking about? If you are talking about the specific community of muslims in lower manhatten, then I believe that they will be undisturbed by a titty bar in their midst.
Gonzoox wrote:
It's ok for them to send home made missiles to the jewish cities close to Palestine, missiles that actually have killed people, but if Israel decides to use their army to
My whole point with my "rant" if you can call it like that is about freedom and consequences, I used the Israeli conflict because is another good example of how these extremists do something against Israel because is their "right" but when the Israel gets fed up and fight back, then Israel is the murderer. Anyway, you have a good point here.
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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Gonzoox wrote:
if they want to build it, let them do it, but if we are going to talk about tolerance, how will they react if also someone builds a bikini shop with live models in front of the mosque wearing tiny tiny tops? or a gay bar next to it?
There's already a strip club in the area... Don't know exactly how close.
Gonzoox wrote:
Muslims feel they have the right to burn the american flag (or any other flag) or the bible or the torah without consequences, it's ok to do it because they are demanding respect, but if an an american burns their quran is wrong and extremism is used to kill americans on retaliation.
Flags and religious texts are symbols, as is the act of burning them. Whether it's "ok" or not depends on the context. If you're burning a flag to convince people that the country is evil and needs to be destroyed, you're an #%&*#. If you're burning it to protest certain policies, it's a political statement. Same goes for religious texts. The key is that even if doing it is a #%(*& move, you do have the RIGHT to do it. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences. The government won't lock you up for it (At least not in the US), but you're still going to piss people off.
Gonzoox wrote:
Where is the tolerance that muslims are saying, why if they can't follow what they're preaching others should be tolerant to them?, I'm sure we don't share the same beliefs, but because we don't do it should I take a gun and kill you? burn your car? put a sign where everyone can see it with offensive phrases against your faith or beliefs? I mean, it's ok for them to do it, why can't we do the same against them?
You've hit the nail on the head, here. It's a double-standard, and I agree that it's stupid. As the creators of South Park said, either everything's ok or nothing is. Sure, it's a silly show, but I respect them for NEVER pulling their punches, and going after everyone, no matter how controversial. So why can't we do the same? We can. If enough of us really thought that was the answer, we could bomb the entire region back to the stone age. Of course, that would have consequences too, just like the World Trade Center attacks led to those fun little wars in the middle east, a move like that would turn the rest of the world against us. Could Al Qaeda's actions potentially spawn an anti-Islam terrorist group in the US?
good point... still I believe that this "Ground Zero Mosque" is not right, though I can't contradict myself when I talk about freedom and rights and at the same time I say they don't have the right and freedom to do it.
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
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My whole point with my "rant" if you can call it like that is about freedom and consequences, I used the Israeli conflict because is another good example of how these extremists do something against Israel because is their "right" but when the Israel gets fed up and fight back, then Israel is the murderer. Anyway, you have a good point here.
I want to die like my grandfather- asleep, not like the passengers in his car, screaming!
Well you're right that actions have consequences and if the Park 51 center is built that could upset some people enough to inflict violence on muslims. The people who would be in the wrong in this scenario are the ones who resort to violence. I don't really see any similarity between this and the conflict in the Middle East. There is no right to toss missles at Israel. But that also does not give Israel the right to starve and kill the people of the west bank and gaza. That's collective punishment and it is wrong.