Programmers vs. The Rest Of The World [modified]
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
megaadam wrote:
how do I make these people understand?
Fart.Smelly.
Watched code never compiles.
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With my last job I had a similar situation. Earphones and Judas Priest helped a lot.
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
CDP1802 wrote:
and Judas Priest helped a lot.
That might be the first time I have ever hear Judas Priest and help in the same sentence.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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I have a hard time concentrating just sharing an office with ONE other developer - and to be fair, he really doesn't make a lot of noice. And I have another collegue who constantly comes in to chat about one thing or the other. Sometimes work, sometimes not... And now the boss wants us to move to a different where we're supposed to sit four people in the same room. That's going to be a challenge to me. So I really count myself lucky that I don't have to sit in an environment like the one you describe. I couldn't function like that. You don't have a conference room with wireless internet where you can go to work when you really need silence?
1f y0u c4n r34d 7h15 y0u r3411y n33d 70 g37 14!d Gotta run; I've got people to do and things to see... Don't tell my folks I'm a computer programmer - They think I'm a piano player in a cat house... Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo!
Your office mate is quite lucky then. Years ago, I shared an office with one other english gentleman. He was too polite to let me know that my typing was too loud and would bother him. He would disappear for parts of the day and work in an unfinished basement in the building. He didn't let me know until 2 years later after he had given notice to go to another office.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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CDP1802 wrote:
and Judas Priest helped a lot.
That might be the first time I have ever hear Judas Priest and help in the same sentence.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
Ok, I admit it. On slow days I get too soft ;)
A while ago he asked me what he should have printed on my business cards. I said 'Wizard'. I read books which nobody else understand. Then I do something which nobody understands. After that the computer does something which nobody understands. When asked, I say things about the results which nobody understand. But everybody expects miracles from me on a regular basis. Looks to me like the classical definition of a wizard.
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megaadam wrote:
how do I make these people understand?
Fart.Smelly.
Watched code never compiles.
Aren't you just punishing yourself as well this way?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
Have exactly the same problem here, although we are a slightly larger dev team, and have had it in other places too. Last place I worked we managed to get our own office (in a different building even for a while) because the IT director was an ex programmer himself so understood our complaints. In the past I have also changed my working hours so 4 or 5 hours were spent pretty much on my own, although that only worked because it fitted well with my home life at that time. This time however, and despite repeated requests from our manager to find us somewhere more isolated we remain and the finance team have just last week been moved to a different, quieter floor that we wanted instead. I am not sure what the solution can be, many plug themselves into headphones and listen to music, but I find that just as distracting as people talking. Working from home works, but there is such a culture of holding almost constant meetings for mostly no gain that can be problem, although I think the main bar to it is suspicion from other workers that those workign from home are doing nothing, or are not able to be got hold of easily. So in summary, I feel your pain, have no useful solutions, and wish you the best of luck.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Aren't you just punishing yourself as well this way?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Farts are like kids, you can stand your own.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
thats soo true
As barmey as a sack of badgers Dude, if I knew what I was doing in life, I'd be rich, retired, dating a supermodel and laughing at the rest of you from the sidelines.
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Farts are like kids, you can stand your own.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Out of complete understanding of that issue, I have to five that....
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
Try the way of JSOP - then you can enjoy the quietness either way :rolleyes: Edit----------- not the solutions he replied but the "solution" he is expected to implement ;P
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
Shift your working hours and go to work at 6-7 AM, thus you will don’t have to put up with the noise half of the time.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Try the way of JSOP - then you can enjoy the quietness either way :rolleyes: Edit----------- not the solutions he replied but the "solution" he is expected to implement ;P
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I work in a similar environment and have done in the various companies I've worked for sinse I started work. I've always relied on headphones and music to shut everyone out, but it may not aide your concentration. I've used it for so many ears now I find it difficult to work without music.
Our company has a similar approach. When you don't want to hear the other developers screaming at each other, just put your headphones on and listen to music that you like. I find it almost impossible to code with it these days.
My plan is to live forever ... so far so good
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- Get some high-quality noise canceling headphones. 1) Ask your boss to put up some barriers between you guys and the rest of the office. 2) Wear a pistol to work with a t-shirt that says something like "I'm armed. Think before you speak."
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Wear a pistol to work with a t-shirt that says something like "I'm armed. Think before you speak."
That's going to be my uniform for my next design review.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
megaadam wrote:
how do I make these people understand?
Bring a trumpet with you?
There are some really weird people on this planet - MIM.
Or bagpipes. Same sound as strangling a cat, but less likely to get animal cruelty associations investigating. :laugh: (Apologies to anyone that likes bagpipes :) )
Posted from SPARTA!!!!!!!!!! 2.0. Don't forget to rate my post if it helped! ;)
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
I feel your frustration. At my company's previous offices I had my very own corner office. Even though the walls were dry-walling, I could close the door and focus on my work. Those were THE MOST PRODUCTIVE days I ever gave to my company. Since then we built our own office building and now have a modern-looking semi-open-plan office setup with us (the developers) and the support staff on the two sides. Unfortunately, there is ONE SINGLE (attention seeking) support person that is simply not capable of doing ANYTHING discreetly. Every thing he says, he practically screams. He loves reading emailed or online jokes out loud, laughing so loud afterwards that he doesn't even realize he's laughing alone. And the reason I really feel your frustration, is that I also seem to be alone. I also seem to be the only one yearning for silence, or at the very least just some plain decency and professionalism.
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
I think my brain is wired similarly. And, I agree with the headphones, but I need white noise or something more consistent than most music. I purchased a cd with a variety of water sounds and found one that's perfect as it has basically no quiet periods. I tune to the lowest possible level until the environment get's noisy, then increase as needed.
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
Get yourself some noise canceling headphones and an MP3 player. Even the cheap ones work (no need to go to Bose) with music. With my Logitech ($50) cheapies, I'm able to mow the lawn and hear music. Much better than cranking the volume to nerve damage levels.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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Never felt that way, have you! So here is my problem: My office environment is unbearable. Work is technically challenging and enjoyable. I like my co-workers, and I would not like to quit. (And yes, there was a similar post by Josh Gray recently, but this is my pain.) We are three programmers and one support kid in [this office of] my company. Nice and cosy? Well… We share an open office landscape with another company of 20 people (same owners, more or less). They do completely unrelated stuff. And their main skills are communication. On good days, many of them are out of office, and the remaining ones make a decent effort to talk really quietly. On such days the office is quite pleasant. On bad days, it all turns into a painful cacophony. They are constantly on the phone, if not chatting with each other. They get carried away they forget completely to keep their voices down. If I have to concentrate on a really tricky debugging problem, all that chatter drives me absolutely crazy. On such days vivid images enter my mind. Maybe you remember William 'D-Fens' Foster (a.k.a. Michael Douglas) losing it completely in Falling Down[]. Or when short on baseball bats: the alternative of leaving our 7th floor offices through the window becomes frighteningly attractive... The other two programmers do not mind the noise [too much]. To be more precise: When the boss asks them “Do you mind the noise?” they say “Nope”. And the boss walks off happy. But when really pressed (by me) they admit that the noise does indeed harm concentration “a bit” but they still think it is more fun to be in larger group. So, my hearing is probably neurologically differently wired from theirs, but the fact remains: For me the effort of concentrating in such noise is almost physically painful, and extremely exhausting. After my complaints, the powers that be were kind and responsive, and installed noise absorbers on the walls. Things got better. But then they hired a morbid amount of sales people and jammed them into the same room. Two steps forward, four steps back. What to do? Change my attitude? Seek mental counseling? Re-wire my own brain? Earplugs?(tried them) Ear muffs?(have them) Noise screens ? Build a solid wall? Relocate? Work from home? Public flogging of the noisy ones?? A hard sell, but a personal favourite! All these have many aspects their own. But really: Being the apparent odd man ou
It is obvious to me that you are a total failure as a nerd. #1: As a nerd you should be the most annoying person in the office. I suggest that you go on the offensive. You could use a subtle approach, like picking your nose constantly, to get sound (and sight) reducing walls built. That way you aren't the one suggesting the expenditures to the bossman. If you want your own office with a door I'd suggest egg protien three times a day. It's a good way to gas your way into your own office with a door and separate air handling system. #2: As a nerd you should have the ability to control the make up of your office. If movies are to be believed it is only a matter of adjusting payroll files or the generation of a few creative emails and you've got all your noisy co-workers looking for a new job. Alternatively you could simply write software that eliminates a noisy co-workers job - I used that technique once to get rid of a guy who was a knock-knock joke afficinado. I hear he's a big hit down at McDonald's. The only way to win is to make your problem someone else's problem. Report back here when you've won.