Is science just a new religion ?
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Pualee wrote:
This is your intellect, emotions, physical service, everything about you. You can claim belief without intellect, but it is false.
Really... Is that why the bible tells us that we need to come to him(god) as unquestioning, innocent, ignorant little children?
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
If God is infinite is wisdom, then we can't be anything but that.
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Marcus Kramer wrote:
So... How did god come to be?
Your question is meaningless until we first define "god." And good luck on that.
Why? Just because one question depends on another doesn't mean it can't be asked. It just won't be answered first, that's all.
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Pualee wrote:
So... how did gravity come to be?
Your question is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Gravity exists: it can be detected, measured and quantified. We can -- and have -- run experiments that show how the force of gravity varies with distance. The Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecrafts had no guidance system other than a gyroscope and human understanding of gravity, and both arrived at their expected destinations within a 10^-12 degree of precision, the equivalent of hitting a golf ball in Los Angeles and making a hole-in-one in Dubai City... without first touching the ground. What evidence, exactly, do you have that God exists? And for that matter, which god specifically? The Islamic one? The Christian Trinity? Ahura Mazda? Zeus? Shva? Magna Mater? The deified Caesar Augustus? Eris? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Gregory.Gadow wrote:
What evidence, exactly, do you have that God exists? And for that matter, which god specifically? The Islamic one? The Christian Trinity? Ahura Mazda? Zeus? Shva? Magna Mater? The deified Caesar Augustus? Eris? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
All are interpretations of the Creator. By Mennen.
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Came across a cool site for those long chilllout discussions in the breaks. http://blog.aimonger.com/2010/12/13/is-science-just-a-new-religion/ I know it's not programming but since I get lot's of interesting non related links from the lounge might as well share back :-O . njoy..
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It was a f'in accident. We're supposed to be weightless.
Gravity is far more important than weight. If the force of gravity changed, even slightly, our universe could not exist in its current form, and neither would we. Either the matter of our bodies would drift apart or crash together. Either way, we could not exist. Gravity is one of those things that is so perfect, it must have been part of an intelligent design, not random probability, and definitely not created from nothingness.
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Er...No! Religion requires belief and unquestioning loyalty. Science requires proof and nothing else but questions. Asking if science is like religion is like asking 'Why is a mouse when it spins'. Meaningless and a waste of time. Science is the antithesis of religion, science requires intelligence and learning to succeed, religion requires stupidity, fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
religion requires stupidity
Really? Stupidity? Thanks. And what happened to this[^] where you say you "do not denounce the followers of any religious or spiritual teaching"? Calling people stupid for believing seems to be a denunciation to me; however, I'd welcome an alternative explanation.
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Dalek Dave wrote:
religion requires stupidity
Really? Stupidity? Thanks. And what happened to this[^] where you say you "do not denounce the followers of any religious or spiritual teaching"? Calling people stupid for believing seems to be a denunciation to me; however, I'd welcome an alternative explanation.
I did not state that those who follow it are all stupid, there have been very intelligent people who have believed in a god. I was attempting to suggest that religion itself if stupid. It is not an access to god, it is a way to power for those who hold the authority. A wise man may do a stupid thing, but a fool knows no better.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
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How about these two for starters... Mark 10:15 (New King James Version) 15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." Luke 18:17 (New King James Version) 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." Before you want to play the "That's just the old english translation" game. I have found you parallel translations of Mark 10:15. I don't think there is any question what is being said... New International Version (©1984) I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." New Living Translation (©2007) I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn't receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it." English Standard Version (©2001) Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” New American Standard Bible (©1995) "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." International Standard Version (©2008) I tell you with certainty, whoever doesn't receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it." GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) I can guarantee this truth: Whoever doesn't receive the kingdom of God as a little child receives it will never enter it." King James Bible Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. American King James Version Truly I say to you, Whoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. American Standard Version Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein. Bible in Basic English Truly I say to you, Whoever does not put himself under the kingdom of God like a little child, will not come into it at all. Douay-Rheims Bible Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter into it. Darby Bible Translation Verily I say to you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in no wise enter into it. English Revised Version Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein. Webster's Bible Translation Verily I say to you, Whoever shall not receive the kingdom of God, as a little child,
I see you found it, but this looks far different from your first interpretation:
Marcus Kramer wrote:
Really... Is that why the bible tells us that we need to come to him(god) as unquestioning, innocent, ignorant little children?
We are to be like children (temporarily) to enter the kingdom. What is good about children? They are innocent, curious, loving, creative, etc. And if you ever had a child, you will know they are full of questions. We are to be like children to begin to understand a new world that we could not contemplate before, but as we grow, we are to leave our childish ways behind. You look at children as negative, but it is really a positive step. We must be children before we can mature. Hewbrews 5:11- 11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. The problem with Western culture is that Christianity is so engrained into our daily lives, that we think we know what is says, but do not ever invest ourselves into truly understanding it.
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Pualee wrote:
So... how did gravity come to be?
Your question is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Gravity exists: it can be detected, measured and quantified. We can -- and have -- run experiments that show how the force of gravity varies with distance. The Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecrafts had no guidance system other than a gyroscope and human understanding of gravity, and both arrived at their expected destinations within a 10^-12 degree of precision, the equivalent of hitting a golf ball in Los Angeles and making a hole-in-one in Dubai City... without first touching the ground. What evidence, exactly, do you have that God exists? And for that matter, which god specifically? The Islamic one? The Christian Trinity? Ahura Mazda? Zeus? Shva? Magna Mater? The deified Caesar Augustus? Eris? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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I did not state that those who follow it are all stupid, there have been very intelligent people who have believed in a god. I was attempting to suggest that religion itself if stupid. It is not an access to god, it is a way to power for those who hold the authority. A wise man may do a stupid thing, but a fool knows no better.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
And yet, by saying that religion is stupid aren't you saying that those who believe are stupid? Because wouldn't it follow that belief in something stupid is an indication of stupidity? I consider myself to be an intelligent man and I am a believer. I acknowledge that you said that "there have been very intelligent people who have believed in a god." I simply have a problem reconciling the entirety of your argument and am having a difficult time expressing why without giving the appearance of being insulting, which would be both inappropriate and unintentional. I suppose I should just shut up! :laugh: I feel sympathy for you (and others who share your lack of belief) and hope that some day you may feel differently. My faith is a great comforter to me in tough times and a wonderful companion (not the best word perhaps, but hopefully it conveys something) in good times.
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Gravity is far more important than weight. If the force of gravity changed, even slightly, our universe could not exist in its current form, and neither would we. Either the matter of our bodies would drift apart or crash together. Either way, we could not exist. Gravity is one of those things that is so perfect, it must have been part of an intelligent design, not random probability, and definitely not created from nothingness.
What if gravity is what it is and we adapted and evolved to fit it? I'm pretty sure gravity was here first and isn't it different on every planet/moon based on the size of the planet/moon? So I am pretty sure there was no "creator" saying lets make gravity on earth 9.81 m/s2 so these buggers don't implode!
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I see you found it, but this looks far different from your first interpretation:
Marcus Kramer wrote:
Really... Is that why the bible tells us that we need to come to him(god) as unquestioning, innocent, ignorant little children?
We are to be like children (temporarily) to enter the kingdom. What is good about children? They are innocent, curious, loving, creative, etc. And if you ever had a child, you will know they are full of questions. We are to be like children to begin to understand a new world that we could not contemplate before, but as we grow, we are to leave our childish ways behind. You look at children as negative, but it is really a positive step. We must be children before we can mature. Hewbrews 5:11- 11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. The problem with Western culture is that Christianity is so engrained into our daily lives, that we think we know what is says, but do not ever invest ourselves into truly understanding it.
Thanks for enforcing my point...
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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What if gravity is what it is and we adapted and evolved to fit it? I'm pretty sure gravity was here first and isn't it different on every planet/moon based on the size of the planet/moon? So I am pretty sure there was no "creator" saying lets make gravity on earth 9.81 m/s2 so these buggers don't implode!
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You are obviously not a physicist! Centripetal force is a real force, a square law force at that, and nature loves them! (F=m.v^2/r and S=r.Δv/v are useful equations to remember)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Summary: centrifugal/centripetal forces don't exist. Neither do rail forces. Preamble: I'll ignore second-order effects (such as gravity unless explicitly mentioned, or the weight of a rope, or the elasticity of a rope), unwanted effects (such as friction), and the physics of the extremely small. I'm also not going into the speed versus velocity debate (there are different and equally valid views on the exact words) nor the equivalent for acceleration. Lemma 1: Newton's laws explain pretty well what forces are, what their effect is, and how they correlate with change in motion. His first law explains inertia: objects keep their (linear or spin) motion constant unless a force gets applied. His third law explains how forces come in pairs (If you push against a wall, the wall will try and resist, i.e. it pushes back at you. So whatever force you apply to it, another force of equal magnitude and opposite direction will work against you) Lemma 2: there are only a few fundamental forces. Most commonly we accept four of them: gravity, electromagnetic force, and nuclear force (both the weak and the strong one). And scientists continue and hope to unite them, i.e. find a single even more fundamental force that explains the current four. These four forces exist all by themselves, i.e. without anyone causing them or controlling them. Any time we see other forces, they are caused by something, maybe a living being activating a muscle, or some kind of a motor being switched on. Experiment 0: If a single object O1 with mass M1, and a second object O2 with mass M2 equal to zero (to avoid gravity effects), were the only objects in the universe, and started without any speed relative to each other, their distance would remain the same for eternity. Hence there is no centripetal/centrifugal force, no matter what you consider the center. Give the second object some mass, and (still assuming no initial relative speed) gravity will bring them together with an ever increasing speed (as acceleration is towards each other, and grows quadratically as distance diminishes). Experiment 1: if an object passes you by (at some distance), without external influences, it will follow a straight line. if there is a long rope attached to it, and you hold the free end of the rope, you could influence it by pulling (not pulling wouldn't change the object's linear motion at all). If you give it a single pull while it is approaching, you will accelerate it and it will change course a bit (no friction!) and come toward you at a higher pac
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Why? Just because one question depends on another doesn't mean it can't be asked. It just won't be answered first, that's all.
When the value of Y depends on the value of X, you cannot describe the value of Y until the value of X has been determined. This is remedial algebra / logic.
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When the value of Y depends on the value of X, you cannot describe the value of Y until the value of X has been determined. This is remedial algebra / logic.
That's not true. You describe X in terms of the possible values of Y. That's the basis of algebra. However, in real life, you can describe one unknown without knowing anything about another unknown since the other may or may not be really dependent on the first. Everyone here is saying you can't prove God, therefore God doesn't exist. God is the limit of the universe. You can't prove why gravity exists, even though we know how it works, but that doesn't mean we don't accept it all as fact.
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Science is based on doubt as opposed to wishful thinking aka faith. Discovery and news is, most of the time, published and exposed to peer review. Disprove is valued as much as proof. Disagreeing views are valued and prefered to monotonic knowledge anagonism is fostered and useful. Proof and empirical observation are pinions of most of the finidngs of science. Experimentation is necessary not evil. There are NO Dogmas everything is always in question but not all questions are equal. It is based around reproducability freak measurements are not looked at as divine interventions more like human failure. It takes human flaws and eliminates them as much as possible from all experiments. It does not assume a pious or arbitrary position on facts. It assumes it is wrong to start with. The blog covers it but it explains the parallels too.
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Pualee wrote:
So... how did gravity come to be?
Your question is irrelevant to the subject at hand. Gravity exists: it can be detected, measured and quantified. We can -- and have -- run experiments that show how the force of gravity varies with distance. The Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 spacecrafts had no guidance system other than a gyroscope and human understanding of gravity, and both arrived at their expected destinations within a 10^-12 degree of precision, the equivalent of hitting a golf ball in Los Angeles and making a hole-in-one in Dubai City... without first touching the ground. What evidence, exactly, do you have that God exists? And for that matter, which god specifically? The Islamic one? The Christian Trinity? Ahura Mazda? Zeus? Shva? Magna Mater? The deified Caesar Augustus? Eris? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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Dalek Dave wrote:
You say, several times, 'In My Opinion' but what qualifications do you have to form an opinion?
The fact that I can read and post does. Are we debating what an opinion is now? Isn't the search for truth just an opinion until it gets discredited down the road. FYI, I have a BS and MS n mathematics and my parents are religious. It took me a while to understand them and why they think the way they do.
Dalek Dave wrote:
Certainly about time, for time is not a constant, but a fluid measure. This is easily provable, for time is a function of mass, and mass is a function of velocity, so before big bang there was neither mass nor velocity, therefore there cannot have been time.
When and how did we get here?
Dalek Dave wrote:
The point about science is that it is changing, all the time, because we are constantly learning.
If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? If science is constantly changing, is it facts, or facts of the day?
Dalek Dave wrote:
So not eating pork is wise. However, science has given us the Freezer and Disinfectant, so where is the problem? Ah, the problem lies in the fact that some old geezer wrote it in a book many centuries ago and the ignorance of religion cannot encompass the fact that humans are too clever by seven eighths!
I agree with you there. That is just an interpretation of some of the aspects of religion. I'm just talking about creation itself. For that, one just needs faith.
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Spoken like someone who has never studied science. As a physicist I am rarely asked anything, but here goes... Matter comes in and out of existance at all times. it is not matter in the sense you understand it to be, merely a quantum possibility that oscillates on a probabity brane (String Theory), and at this micro level there is nothing touchable, merely interactable. This matter comes in many flavours, from thr leptonic via the mesonic to the baryonic and then into what is merely the atomic level. Even then, it is not really matter as you would understand, but a set of charges and forces, Weak, Strong, Electromagnetic and Gravity. Oddly, the stongest of these is the Weak force, and the weakest is gravity, although gravity binds the whole universe together. But gravity exists across all 11 dimensions, not just the 4 that we easily comprehend. (Brane Theory). One we get to the macro level we still cannot touch anything, for most of everything is nothing. When you handle a ball or a door or a puppy, you are not touching any part of that ball, door or puppy, merely the electromagnetic forces within your body are hitting the field resistance of the ball etc. As for where big bang came from is pointless as there was no time before big bang. Time was created then. It may not have been the first or only big bang, and there are probably billions of universes, why not, physics abhors a vacuum. Religion is clearly preposterous as it took a mind to create it, and our minds are shaped by our evolutionary and genetic inheritance, whereas physics works whether we are watching or not. Hell, they even leave gravity switched on at the weekend! This is why religion is always doomed to fail, because eventually we all accept that what the stupid bastards are preaching is wrong.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC League Table Link CCC Link[^]
Dave's been watching the Big Bang Theory, right Dave? Perhaps Sheldon? ;)
Charlie Gilley You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house. "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759