VB kicks C++'s arse
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Totally disagree with you here. Firefighting is different. As you've said, youir firefighters have to work in a totally different environment to ours. Taka Muraoka wrote: Can you imagine going anywhere *near* a burning house, let alone inside it, to try put it out? Yes I can, when I was seven or eight I had had to climb out of the second-storey window of a burning pub - with a thatched roof, wooden and w/dorb construction, and gallons and gallons of alcohol in the bars, cellars and store rooms less than thirty feet away from the private living quarters - into the arms of a local who was a firefighter living in the village. It was a very very *very* scary experience indeed. However, the firefighters that put it out and saved my home and families business (not to mention our lives) were merely taking calculated risks. Individuals make heros, not professions, and compensating them win money is just plain wrong. Tables turned I'd be damned offended if someone offered me money just to take risks like that, and I expect most of the firefighters of the world would do to. Bill, the man who (amongst many others) helped us was thanked against his will by an unlimited bar tab till the day we left, and he hated it. He'd leave tips to cover the cost of his drinks. Taka Muraoka wrote: And how much would it be worth to you if you were stuck in a burning building and needed somebody to come get you out? See above. Taka Muraoka wrote: All the other stuff you mentioned about the unions has nothing to do with fire-fighters though. Not really. It's just plain old union thuggery It has everything to do with them the way they are pushing it. Taka Muraoka wrote: Oh, errr, I might pass on that then... Damn, and I'd hunted out my special little red PVC number just for you. :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: However, the firefighters that put it out and saved my home and families business (not to mention our lives) were merely taking calculated risks. Individuals make heros, not professions, and compensating them win money is just plain wrong. Absolutely. To paraphrase, there are old firemen and there are heroic firemen but there are no old, heroic firemen. These guys take the calculated risks because they have the training and the willingness to put themselves in harm's way to save our asses. I'm not advocating giving them more money for being heroes - I would imagine that most of them aren't - or just because they're fire-fighters but the fact that we pay them and the paramedics and the police and the school teachers a mere living wage is a sad commentary on the value we place on their contribution they make to society. David Wulff wrote: It has everything to do with them the way they are pushing it. But it has nothing to do with the fact that they are fire-fighters. They could be dock workers or steelies and the story would be pretty much the same. David Wulff wrote: Damn, and I'd hunted out my special little red PVC number just for you. <shudder> Oh, the horror. The horror. </shudder>
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
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David Wulff wrote: However, the firefighters that put it out and saved my home and families business (not to mention our lives) were merely taking calculated risks. Individuals make heros, not professions, and compensating them win money is just plain wrong. Absolutely. To paraphrase, there are old firemen and there are heroic firemen but there are no old, heroic firemen. These guys take the calculated risks because they have the training and the willingness to put themselves in harm's way to save our asses. I'm not advocating giving them more money for being heroes - I would imagine that most of them aren't - or just because they're fire-fighters but the fact that we pay them and the paramedics and the police and the school teachers a mere living wage is a sad commentary on the value we place on their contribution they make to society. David Wulff wrote: It has everything to do with them the way they are pushing it. But it has nothing to do with the fact that they are fire-fighters. They could be dock workers or steelies and the story would be pretty much the same. David Wulff wrote: Damn, and I'd hunted out my special little red PVC number just for you. <shudder> Oh, the horror. The horror. </shudder>
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
Striking dock workers or steelies don't put people's lives in direct danger.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Striking dock workers or steelies don't put people's lives in direct danger.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
So you're saying, as our young friend who started this VB vs. C++ thread did, that emergency services should not be allowed to strike? It says something about the importance of the work that they do that people's lives are in danger when they're not there and I'm sure that no-one feels that responsibility more than the workers themselves. We haven't heard too much about this particular strike here in Oz and it may be just a case of the union bosses getting belligerent but generally speaking, I would guess that emergency service personnel tend to be somewhat reluctant to go on strike because they realize the consequences of doing so.
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
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So you're saying, as our young friend who started this VB vs. C++ thread did, that emergency services should not be allowed to strike? It says something about the importance of the work that they do that people's lives are in danger when they're not there and I'm sure that no-one feels that responsibility more than the workers themselves. We haven't heard too much about this particular strike here in Oz and it may be just a case of the union bosses getting belligerent but generally speaking, I would guess that emergency service personnel tend to be somewhat reluctant to go on strike because they realize the consequences of doing so.
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
Did you catch what I said earlier about union members intimidating those non-union members who are still trying to work, by calling them cowards and shouting abuse at them? These are not the actions of caring individuals in our eyes. There are some, sure, thank god, who are willing to break their own picket lines if they know a life is in danger, but already now many people have died because the immeadiate danger was not known, and many on strike are there merely because they fear the repercusions of thier workmates if they choose to continue. The dates they've chosen to strike are not coincidensces either - they've selected times of the year when statistically there are likely to be more fires than other times of the year, and then calling in hoaxs for christ's sake! They are using our lives to extort our own money from us. Let's not forget who is walking out of the talks at the slightest hint they won't be getting their own way.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Did you catch what I said earlier about union members intimidating those non-union members who are still trying to work, by calling them cowards and shouting abuse at them? These are not the actions of caring individuals in our eyes. There are some, sure, thank god, who are willing to break their own picket lines if they know a life is in danger, but already now many people have died because the immeadiate danger was not known, and many on strike are there merely because they fear the repercusions of thier workmates if they choose to continue. The dates they've chosen to strike are not coincidensces either - they've selected times of the year when statistically there are likely to be more fires than other times of the year, and then calling in hoaxs for christ's sake! They are using our lives to extort our own money from us. Let's not forget who is walking out of the talks at the slightest hint they won't be getting their own way.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Did you catch what I said earlier about union members intimidating those non-union members who are still trying to work, by calling them cowards and shouting abuse at them Yes I did but I wasn't sure if you referring to that or striking in general. As I said, if these guys are doing this kind of thing, then that is totally reprehensible but this kind of union bastardry happens everywhere, not just with firefighters. We always have annual airline pilot strikes and public transport strikes around this time of year because it's the best time to get results. Sure, it's worse because people's lives are being endangered. There will always be some bad apples in the bunch, in positions of power in the unions. It takes a lot of guts to break a picket line and it's unfair to label them as a bunch of bastards because you have a few pricks running the union. David Wulff wrote: Let's not forget who is walking out of the talks at the slightest hint they won't be getting their own way. Again, we haven't heard an awful lot about this particular situation here in Australia. But I know there have been cases here in the past where nurses and police have gone strike and been pretty stubborn about their demands but only because they had been so reluctant to take action that things had deteriorated to the point where their situation was intolerable. Oh well.
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
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David Wulff wrote: Taka Muraoka wrote: What on earth is a "similarly skilled worker"?! A skilled manual labourer. Even well paid nurses only get £18,000 a year locally, compared to the £23,000 firefighters get. My point was that firefighting is a pretty specialized job. I don't think you can really compare it against other labourer jobs. Nursing is another woefully underpaid job but they not really putting their lives on the line for us. And I can't believe the salaries you quoted. They seem really low - England's an expensive place. Although a quick Google came up with an average salary of 13K pounds for an entry-level fireman here in Oz. Which is a bare minimum living wage here; I couldn't imagine anyone being able to support a family on that. That's still-living-at-home-with-the-parents kind of money. David Wulff wrote: For you Taka I'd do it for free. How nice. When can I expect the pics. Or is it going to be at www.wulffinaskirt.com? :laugh:
Apparently there is a man who has been a firefighter here for 19 years, currently earning £22000. Appalling. I can assure you that his kids will also be leaving uni with debts as he won't be able to afford to put them through. However, striking when your action can mean people will die (usually children, sick or elderly people) is extreme. The way the government here has handled the whole thing also stinks.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages A moment of silence please. A programmer's best friend has passed beyond that great exception in the sky.... - Mark Conger on "The coffee machine has died"
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Apparently there is a man who has been a firefighter here for 19 years, currently earning £22000. Appalling. I can assure you that his kids will also be leaving uni with debts as he won't be able to afford to put them through. However, striking when your action can mean people will die (usually children, sick or elderly people) is extreme. The way the government here has handled the whole thing also stinks.
I knew it would end badly when I first met Chris in a Canberra alleyway and he said 'try some - it won't hurt you'..... - Christian Graus on Code Project outages A moment of silence please. A programmer's best friend has passed beyond that great exception in the sky.... - Mark Conger on "The coffee machine has died"
I got the feeling from David that the firefighters were being a bit belligerent about the whole thing. But these folks are always stuck between a rock and a hard place: damned if they go on strike and damned if they don't. Sigh...
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
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OK now that i've got your attention... :jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob: I saw my first Green Godess yesterday. (the army fire trucks here in the UK) and today I saw the local firefighters decorating thier picket lines for christmas. Personally i felt like driving the car right into the lot of them. (I'm a learner so i'd just say i paniced :-)) DO SOME BLEEDING WORK! There may have been a thread about the firestrike already but i'm now expressing my views here. WHY THE HELL ARN'T I PAYED £30,000 per annum, when you look at the facts they don't do all that much work and they are payed whilst sleeping? Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Why should they be on that salary when they only need two O-Levels and a Budgie to do that job. I give full credit to the Army, they are making the best out of a crap situation they are in and i'd toot my car horn at them over the striking firemen any day (however they may think i'm being a prick for sounding my horn at them for no reason) Plus why is the Fire Service allowed to strike? IMHO no emergency service should be allowed to strike, AFAIK the police aren't allowed to.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
When there is a really bad crash who do you think scrapes the bits out of cars and puts them into plastic bags ? :suss: :( Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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OK now that i've got your attention... :jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob: I saw my first Green Godess yesterday. (the army fire trucks here in the UK) and today I saw the local firefighters decorating thier picket lines for christmas. Personally i felt like driving the car right into the lot of them. (I'm a learner so i'd just say i paniced :-)) DO SOME BLEEDING WORK! There may have been a thread about the firestrike already but i'm now expressing my views here. WHY THE HELL ARN'T I PAYED £30,000 per annum, when you look at the facts they don't do all that much work and they are payed whilst sleeping? Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Why should they be on that salary when they only need two O-Levels and a Budgie to do that job. I give full credit to the Army, they are making the best out of a crap situation they are in and i'd toot my car horn at them over the striking firemen any day (however they may think i'm being a prick for sounding my horn at them for no reason) Plus why is the Fire Service allowed to strike? IMHO no emergency service should be allowed to strike, AFAIK the police aren't allowed to.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
Personally, I think anyone working in the public sector gets taken for granted by Government and paid accordingly. As a result there's a severe shortage of teachers, NHS staff and who knows what else - and sooner or later that's going to do serious damage to this country. At least in the private sector you can move to another company to improve your salary. Case in point: in June 1998 I moved from Racal Instruments Ltd to Sonardyne International Ltd. My salary rose from £24,000 pa + overtime (I was doing 60 hours a month) to £35,000 pa + bonus. How many public sector employees can do that??? Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
I got the feeling from David that the firefighters were being a bit belligerent about the whole thing. But these folks are always stuck between a rock and a hard place: damned if they go on strike and damned if they don't. Sigh...
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
Oh no, not all of them, not (I would hope) by a long way, but when your union strikes you strike too - you have no choice in the matter. The majority of *real* firefighters hate being on strike but not that many asked seem to believe it is not the right way to fight. Still, when has a union ever listen to what it's members *really* wanted. :~
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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David Wulff wrote: Did you catch what I said earlier about union members intimidating those non-union members who are still trying to work, by calling them cowards and shouting abuse at them Yes I did but I wasn't sure if you referring to that or striking in general. As I said, if these guys are doing this kind of thing, then that is totally reprehensible but this kind of union bastardry happens everywhere, not just with firefighters. We always have annual airline pilot strikes and public transport strikes around this time of year because it's the best time to get results. Sure, it's worse because people's lives are being endangered. There will always be some bad apples in the bunch, in positions of power in the unions. It takes a lot of guts to break a picket line and it's unfair to label them as a bunch of bastards because you have a few pricks running the union. David Wulff wrote: Let's not forget who is walking out of the talks at the slightest hint they won't be getting their own way. Again, we haven't heard an awful lot about this particular situation here in Australia. But I know there have been cases here in the past where nurses and police have gone strike and been pretty stubborn about their demands but only because they had been so reluctant to take action that things had deteriorated to the point where their situation was intolerable. Oh well.
I'd wear a miniskirt and pimp myself for an extra ten grand a year. - David Wulff
Taka Muraoka wrote: It takes a lot of guts to break a picket line and it's unfair to label them as a bunch of bastards because you have a few pricks running the union. Firstly, I was calling the members who are using bullying intimidation tactics to scare non-union members into striking, and who are phoning in hoax accidents and house fires to their own switchboards to tie up the limited fire cover we have, as bastards. Those people can run off a short bridge for my respect. It's the people on the picket lines - not all, but some - who are responsble for the intimidation and abuse, not the union. Did you catch the other part of my messages about the fighters who left the union because of the union's rejection over the supply and use of basic medic training? A lot of people - myself included - view this to be a very clear indication that the union's only concern is the profit of it's organisation and not the welfare of the people; be them civillians or members of the fireservice.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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When there is a really bad crash who do you think scrapes the bits out of cars and puts them into plastic bags ? :suss: :( Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
What about the Royal Engineers (or whichever army group they are) which follow wars around to pick up the bits of soldiers and civillians left behind and try and piece them together enough so they can dispose of full human beings? What about mortuary workers and autopsy people? Road workers? Plenty of people have "undesirable" jobs.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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OK now that i've got your attention... :jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob: I saw my first Green Godess yesterday. (the army fire trucks here in the UK) and today I saw the local firefighters decorating thier picket lines for christmas. Personally i felt like driving the car right into the lot of them. (I'm a learner so i'd just say i paniced :-)) DO SOME BLEEDING WORK! There may have been a thread about the firestrike already but i'm now expressing my views here. WHY THE HELL ARN'T I PAYED £30,000 per annum, when you look at the facts they don't do all that much work and they are payed whilst sleeping? Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Why should they be on that salary when they only need two O-Levels and a Budgie to do that job. I give full credit to the Army, they are making the best out of a crap situation they are in and i'd toot my car horn at them over the striking firemen any day (however they may think i'm being a prick for sounding my horn at them for no reason) Plus why is the Fire Service allowed to strike? IMHO no emergency service should be allowed to strike, AFAIK the police aren't allowed to.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
There has been a thread on this already, in the Lounge at the time of the first strike. Personally, I think it's disgusting. The striking firefighters should be ashamed of themselves. Tony Blair should do what Ronald Reagan did to the striking air-traffic controllers in the '80s - give them an ultimatum - 24 hours to get back to work or you're sacked. I have no sympathy with them whatsoever - any sympaphy I did have went out the window the moment they went on strike. And when I see the FBU leader Andy Gilchrist on the TV moaning about how badly they are treated I want to scream - this is a man who takes home 82K a year PLUS a generous pension PLUS help with his mortgage. I wonder how much of his fat salary he's donating to the cause. The man is a prick - what has his FBU been doing for the last 25 years if things are so bad? Oh and lets not forget why they went on strike in 1977 - they wanted their very own pay-review board - and they got it. And guess what? They threw out the recommendations of this very same review board. If they get anything above inflation with no concessions, then it will open the floodgates and this countrys economy will be in SERIOUS trouble. I like having low inflation and interest rates - if public-sector pay goes through the roof as a result of this then we are ALL in trouble. So, anyone that does support the strike (and talking to my friends, family and work colleagues I have yet to find ANYONE who supports the strike!) just think about what high-interest rates will do to your mortgage and then see how much sympathy you have. This isn't the 1970s - someone should try telling that to Andy Gilchrist. And, public support is slipping - it was never much better than 65% anyway and now it's dropped to ~30%. By the time of the next strike I'll be surprised if support is higher than 20% - and without the public behind them, there cause is already lost. Start negotiating and get your arses back to work.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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When there is a really bad crash who do you think scrapes the bits out of cars and puts them into plastic bags ? :suss: :( Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
Sometimes the Police. Sometimes paramedics. So your point is what exactly??? My father used to be a paramedic and he saw things that would make you hurl - and he would never, ever have gone on strike. And let's not forget the armed forces - who do a MUCH more dangerous job than the fire-fighters - and are paid MUCH less. My brother-in-law was in Rwanda - and he got 90 PENCE a day danger money. NINETY PENCE. And he saw things that many people couldn't even imagine. The comments by some fire-fighters about the armed forces have been inexcusable - they actually want them to do a bad job in order to strengthen their cause.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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Personally, I think anyone working in the public sector gets taken for granted by Government and paid accordingly. As a result there's a severe shortage of teachers, NHS staff and who knows what else - and sooner or later that's going to do serious damage to this country. At least in the private sector you can move to another company to improve your salary. Case in point: in June 1998 I moved from Racal Instruments Ltd to Sonardyne International Ltd. My salary rose from £24,000 pa + overtime (I was doing 60 hours a month) to £35,000 pa + bonus. How many public sector employees can do that??? Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschAnna :) wrote: How many public sector employees can do that??? MP's! Pay a little low? Vote yourself a 20% increase! Oh and give yourself more holidays! No group of people whould be allowed to vote on their own pay. There should be a non-MP chaired committee to do that. From what I understand, the firemen have not had a standard pay review for 15 years, where the last time it was linked to some common index which has been 2-3% a year less than inflation. So every year for 15 years has been equivalent to a pay cut or decrease in standard of living. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 In case you're worried about what's going to become of the younger generation, it's going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation. - Roger Allen, but not me!
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Oh no, not all of them, not (I would hope) by a long way, but when your union strikes you strike too - you have no choice in the matter. The majority of *real* firefighters hate being on strike but not that many asked seem to believe it is not the right way to fight. Still, when has a union ever listen to what it's members *really* wanted. :~
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
Without unions and without right to strikes, how can fight a worker ?
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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Without unions and without right to strikes, how can fight a worker ?
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
Through negotiations like everyone else. If they don't like what they've been given, they can find a new job. Skilled labourers are in demand.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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OK now that i've got your attention... :jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob: I saw my first Green Godess yesterday. (the army fire trucks here in the UK) and today I saw the local firefighters decorating thier picket lines for christmas. Personally i felt like driving the car right into the lot of them. (I'm a learner so i'd just say i paniced :-)) DO SOME BLEEDING WORK! There may have been a thread about the firestrike already but i'm now expressing my views here. WHY THE HELL ARN'T I PAYED £30,000 per annum, when you look at the facts they don't do all that much work and they are payed whilst sleeping? Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Why should they be on that salary when they only need two O-Levels and a Budgie to do that job. I give full credit to the Army, they are making the best out of a crap situation they are in and i'd toot my car horn at them over the striking firemen any day (however they may think i'm being a prick for sounding my horn at them for no reason) Plus why is the Fire Service allowed to strike? IMHO no emergency service should be allowed to strike, AFAIK the police aren't allowed to.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
I've listened to a lot of people talk about job "worth", 40 people per vacancy, bringing down the economy (Blair you lying goit). See what you think of my opinion: First of all, there are two issues: 1. The Firemen Striking Easy - the firemen are wrong to strike. Their service is *essential*. They knew it was essential when they took the job. People will die as a result of striking, it's as simple as that! 2. The Claim For A Salary Increase More difficult and not black and white but I'm going to have a stab at simplifying the issue: First of all, I'm not going to claim I know how much firemen are "worth". I'll leave that to independent review bodies such as the one that found the firemen were worth the 40% extra they were claiming. Actually, that's unfair, from what I've heard, the firemen only demanded 40% once the review had been completed and recommended an increase of 40%. Truth be told, a fireman's "worth" is actually huge - I'm sure on judgement day when we're all asked what we did for our fellow man, the firemen will be somewhere near the front, and IT staff like myself will be somewhere at the back (though still a damn sight closer to the front than lawyers, etc.). OK, so let's set that 40% as our pay increase upper limit for argument's sake... Now we come to market forces, running it as a business and all that other corporate cr@p we're all expected to swallow these days. There is no denying that there are lots of candidates for jobs in the fire service. There's probably all sorts of reasons and perhaps many of these would never make the grade, I don't know, but regardless, I think we can safely say there are more potentially acceptable candidates than available jobs in the fire service. What this means, is that the current pay is actually sufficient to recruit firemen. OK, so let's set that 0% as our pay increase lower limit for argument's sake... Now we have a scale from 0% to 40% which has been determined by a fireman's "worth" and how little a fireman can be recruited for. I suggest that the "appropriate" pay increase for a fireman lies somewhere in between these limits, and I suggest what determines this increase is a related variable we can call, for argument's sake, "acceptable service level". I believe it is common sense to make an immediate pay increase approximating to one-third along the scale I've just described in order to move away from what is the least we can pay to recruit, towards what a fireman is worth with the benefit being a reasonable increase in serv
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I've listened to a lot of people talk about job "worth", 40 people per vacancy, bringing down the economy (Blair you lying goit). See what you think of my opinion: First of all, there are two issues: 1. The Firemen Striking Easy - the firemen are wrong to strike. Their service is *essential*. They knew it was essential when they took the job. People will die as a result of striking, it's as simple as that! 2. The Claim For A Salary Increase More difficult and not black and white but I'm going to have a stab at simplifying the issue: First of all, I'm not going to claim I know how much firemen are "worth". I'll leave that to independent review bodies such as the one that found the firemen were worth the 40% extra they were claiming. Actually, that's unfair, from what I've heard, the firemen only demanded 40% once the review had been completed and recommended an increase of 40%. Truth be told, a fireman's "worth" is actually huge - I'm sure on judgement day when we're all asked what we did for our fellow man, the firemen will be somewhere near the front, and IT staff like myself will be somewhere at the back (though still a damn sight closer to the front than lawyers, etc.). OK, so let's set that 40% as our pay increase upper limit for argument's sake... Now we come to market forces, running it as a business and all that other corporate cr@p we're all expected to swallow these days. There is no denying that there are lots of candidates for jobs in the fire service. There's probably all sorts of reasons and perhaps many of these would never make the grade, I don't know, but regardless, I think we can safely say there are more potentially acceptable candidates than available jobs in the fire service. What this means, is that the current pay is actually sufficient to recruit firemen. OK, so let's set that 0% as our pay increase lower limit for argument's sake... Now we have a scale from 0% to 40% which has been determined by a fireman's "worth" and how little a fireman can be recruited for. I suggest that the "appropriate" pay increase for a fireman lies somewhere in between these limits, and I suggest what determines this increase is a related variable we can call, for argument's sake, "acceptable service level". I believe it is common sense to make an immediate pay increase approximating to one-third along the scale I've just described in order to move away from what is the least we can pay to recruit, towards what a fireman is worth with the benefit being a reasonable increase in serv
AFAIK the last independent pay review recommended 11%, not 40%. I might be wrong but I find it hard to believe that any pay-review body would recommend such a massive increase - unless of course they were paid by the FBU. :) And if you think that giving the fireman an above inflation payrise wouldn't result in more pay claims/industrial action from other areas of the public sector than you must be crackers. It would be the thin end of the wedge. Personally, a mortgage rate of 4% and low inflation is a good thing for the majority of people in this country - if inflation were to take off and the rate rose to, say, 10%, you'd end up with hundreds of thousands of people losing their homes. Remember the early 90s? This would be worse, as house prices are so high. It would be a disaster for the economy - people would be so short of money that we'd see the mother of all recessions. The economy is a fragile enough beast even without this dispute - and I don't often agree with Blair but this time I'm 100% behind him. It WOULD be a disaster for the economy. Any payrise above 4% would have to be paid for by "modernisation" - else teachers, doctors, nurses, the police, the armed services and every other public sector employee would be screaming for more. I am old enough to remember the winter of discontent and I don't want it to happen again! People need to appreciate the wider implications of buckling to the fire-fighters demands. We already have the worrying threats of secondary industrial action (tube drivers, power workers, etc. are all worried about safety and could, theoretically walk out because of the fire strike) so this dispute needs to be resolved. And once it is, the law must be changed so that, like the Police, all other essential service workers cannot strike. If even a single life has been lost because of this strike then every fire fighter in the land should hang their heads in shame.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall. [edit] I just did some searches. The 40% recommendation came from a review PAID FOR BY THE FBU - so NOT independent! The independent review recommended 11%. [/edit]
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Through negotiations like everyone else. If they don't like what they've been given, they can find a new job. Skilled labourers are in demand.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Through negotiations like everyone else Yes, negotiations are the first step. It arrives sometimes that after negociating you're still screwed if you accept the proposal made by the other side. First solution, you negociate for some free lubricant, so it would be less painful Second solution, you continue to fight, fist up. Without strike, what argument do you have, when unemployemnt is high (perhaps not in UK, but the stats are biased), when you have loans to pay, children, and so one ? It's sometimes just about justice and fairness, just a matter of point of view.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans