VB kicks C++'s arse
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Through negotiations like everyone else. If they don't like what they've been given, they can find a new job. Skilled labourers are in demand.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Through negotiations like everyone else Yes, negotiations are the first step. It arrives sometimes that after negociating you're still screwed if you accept the proposal made by the other side. First solution, you negociate for some free lubricant, so it would be less painful Second solution, you continue to fight, fist up. Without strike, what argument do you have, when unemployemnt is high (perhaps not in UK, but the stats are biased), when you have loans to pay, children, and so one ? It's sometimes just about justice and fairness, just a matter of point of view.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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OK now that i've got your attention... :jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob::jig::bob: I saw my first Green Godess yesterday. (the army fire trucks here in the UK) and today I saw the local firefighters decorating thier picket lines for christmas. Personally i felt like driving the car right into the lot of them. (I'm a learner so i'd just say i paniced :-)) DO SOME BLEEDING WORK! There may have been a thread about the firestrike already but i'm now expressing my views here. WHY THE HELL ARN'T I PAYED £30,000 per annum, when you look at the facts they don't do all that much work and they are payed whilst sleeping? Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Why should they be on that salary when they only need two O-Levels and a Budgie to do that job. I give full credit to the Army, they are making the best out of a crap situation they are in and i'd toot my car horn at them over the striking firemen any day (however they may think i'm being a prick for sounding my horn at them for no reason) Plus why is the Fire Service allowed to strike? IMHO no emergency service should be allowed to strike, AFAIK the police aren't allowed to.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
If being a fireman is so confortable and so simple, why don't you join them? They are paid for the work they do (with no regular schedule and working during nights, weekends, and holydays) and for the fact that they risk their life during everyday work. I don't know the problems that forced them to do this kind of strike but I think that people who risk their life and choose this kind of job should have a good reason to do such a strike. Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Because they work to let you finish your studies alive? -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
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Taka Muraoka wrote: My point was that firefighting is a pretty specialized job. I don't think you can really compare it against other labourer jobs. Let's not forget that steel working is a pretty specialised job. Let's not forget that plumbing is a pretty specialised job. Firefighting is no different. September 11th has given firefighters an image in many peoples eyes that they don't really deserve. sure they do a wonderful job and they save peoples lives, but so do a heck of a lot of other professions and many more are far more dangerous to boot. Whenever a national news interview with a picket line is staged, striking firefighters themselves are driving around the block, so to speak, hooting their support. There is a stroing suspicion that striking firefighters themselves have been making hundreds of hoax calls to thie own switchboards to send our limited supporting fire cover on wild goose chases. They are also using gool old fashioned bullying to prevent non-striking firefighters from working. These are actions of intimidation, and to be honest with you I think every last one of them should be sacked if found to be even remotely responsible for any single case. Whilst I - and most of the country, apparently - have no gripes with giving firefighters more money, they have to make themselves "worth it". We can't afford to pay them extra cash (that quite honestly is extortion) without doing the same for other professions, and to be honest with you again - we can't afford to keep paying off the people holding our country's infrastructure together on the whim of a couple of union executives who want £100,000 xmas bonuses that particular year. Taka Muraoka wrote: They seem really low - England's an expensive place The salaries I quoted are for the south west which is nowhere near as expensive as say London or other major centres. The average wage per person here is around £10,000, with many people surviving on less. All the more reason why the rising house prices locally are a serious problem - people can save all their lives and never be able to afford a property of their own, and all because Londoners (and co) are snaping up holiday homes. Still, that is for another day, my point is people survive on much less than half of what the firefighters earn - and that isn't even including their bonuses, etc. Another thing that I find hard to explain to some people is that Brits can survive for less per buck than, say, Americans are
David Wulff wrote: but so do a heck of a lot of other professions and many more are far more dangerous to boot. Its actually been proven that more people die from driving to work in the office than firefighters. If a building is too dangerous, they won't go in, simple as. I agree with you Wulffy that High paid nurses only get £18k when firefighters get £23k. They both saves lives, but will the country be so complacent when the NHS goes on strike? Or the ambulances or the teachers? they will all want 40% pay rises now. Hell if they get £30, i'll go on f*cking strike.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
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David Wulff wrote: but so do a heck of a lot of other professions and many more are far more dangerous to boot. Its actually been proven that more people die from driving to work in the office than firefighters. If a building is too dangerous, they won't go in, simple as. I agree with you Wulffy that High paid nurses only get £18k when firefighters get £23k. They both saves lives, but will the country be so complacent when the NHS goes on strike? Or the ambulances or the teachers? they will all want 40% pay rises now. Hell if they get £30, i'll go on f*cking strike.
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
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Anna :) wrote: How many public sector employees can do that??? MP's! Pay a little low? Vote yourself a 20% increase! Oh and give yourself more holidays! No group of people whould be allowed to vote on their own pay. There should be a non-MP chaired committee to do that. From what I understand, the firemen have not had a standard pay review for 15 years, where the last time it was linked to some common index which has been 2-3% a year less than inflation. So every year for 15 years has been equivalent to a pay cut or decrease in standard of living. Roger Allen Sonork 100.10016 In case you're worried about what's going to become of the younger generation, it's going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation. - Roger Allen, but not me!
Roger Allen wrote: MP's! Pay a little low? Vote yourself a 20% increase! Oh and give yourself more holidays! No group of people whould be allowed to vote on their own pay. There should be a non-MP chaired committee to do that. I'd forgotten about that! It seems to me that the Government really can't complain about requests for higher pay rises from the public sector. :laugh: The thing that annoys me is that the Government appears to be saying upfront that they won't honour any agreement which is made but they don't like...but they want the firefighters to consider it binding. :confused: I think this sort of Thatcher-esque sabre-rattling only serves to make the situation far, far worse (and no, I don't like Union militancy either). Sooner or later we're going to have a big problem in this country with public sector rectruitment. Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch -
Well said Jonny (and Wulffy Boy). Apparently, more teachers have been killed on school premises in the last 10 years than fire-fighters, which blows a rather large hole in their argument.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Apparently, more teachers have been killed on school premises in the last 10 years than fire-fighters, which blows a rather large hole in their argument. Excellent, we are having a debate next week in class about the whole thing, and the main argument for the firefighters is that they have a huge risk on their lives. How can i lose?:-D
We brought out this new and very similar version of our expensive software because the old version was......old....It's a good enough excuse for Microsoft so its fine for us.
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David Wulff wrote: Through negotiations like everyone else Yes, negotiations are the first step. It arrives sometimes that after negociating you're still screwed if you accept the proposal made by the other side. First solution, you negociate for some free lubricant, so it would be less painful Second solution, you continue to fight, fist up. Without strike, what argument do you have, when unemployemnt is high (perhaps not in UK, but the stats are biased), when you have loans to pay, children, and so one ? It's sometimes just about justice and fairness, just a matter of point of view.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
If that was the case then all they'd have to do was tell people of their plight and the public would force the employers to pay them more. Ask yourself: - if pay in the fireservice is so bad, why are these so many applicants for each new position? We are talking hundreds of people here I understand, not four or five. And why don't those underpaid people spend less on sports cars and holidays in the Caribean and more on their families? - why are they so unwilling to modernise their working hours and practises as is so badly needed (if they do they will be given a substancial pay increase)? This might actually require them to work full weeks for their pay like other professions though. - why was the FBU case team originally going to stay for god knows how many months in a five star full service hotel paid for by the underpaid firefighters, and then whine about not getting enough money? (Until the media found out that was, then they downgraded to a 4 star travelodge). If we got rid of the union we'll save the firefighters sixty quid a year each - and that's a good start down the right road.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Sometimes the Police. Sometimes paramedics. So your point is what exactly??? My father used to be a paramedic and he saw things that would make you hurl - and he would never, ever have gone on strike. And let's not forget the armed forces - who do a MUCH more dangerous job than the fire-fighters - and are paid MUCH less. My brother-in-law was in Rwanda - and he got 90 PENCE a day danger money. NINETY PENCE. And he saw things that many people couldn't even imagine. The comments by some fire-fighters about the armed forces have been inexcusable - they actually want them to do a bad job in order to strengthen their cause.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: My brother-in-law was in Rwanda - and he got 90 PENCE a day danger money It's not because your relative was outrageously exploited that others should accept to be f*cked as well. With this argument, you could justify quiet anything, as long as there will be children in China working for 1$ per week.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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If that was the case then all they'd have to do was tell people of their plight and the public would force the employers to pay them more. Ask yourself: - if pay in the fireservice is so bad, why are these so many applicants for each new position? We are talking hundreds of people here I understand, not four or five. And why don't those underpaid people spend less on sports cars and holidays in the Caribean and more on their families? - why are they so unwilling to modernise their working hours and practises as is so badly needed (if they do they will be given a substancial pay increase)? This might actually require them to work full weeks for their pay like other professions though. - why was the FBU case team originally going to stay for god knows how many months in a five star full service hotel paid for by the underpaid firefighters, and then whine about not getting enough money? (Until the media found out that was, then they downgraded to a 4 star travelodge). If we got rid of the union we'll save the firefighters sixty quid a year each - and that's a good start down the right road.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: And why don't those underpaid people spend less on sports cars and holidays in the Caribean and more on their families? I didn't know that Caribean Islands roads were over-crowed by british firemen and their ferraris :-D David Wulff wrote: This might actually require them to work full weeks for their pay like other professions though. This one can't be a valuable argument, please refer to my answer to Mr. Caldecott below. Anyway, look at the situation for the workers at the begining of the XXth century (Google translated)[^] and nowadays. (I agree in UK you are not far to have the same social protection as a Third World country, with a high level of children working and under paid firemen ;P) Nothing came, nothing come, without fighting.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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David Wulff wrote: And why don't those underpaid people spend less on sports cars and holidays in the Caribean and more on their families? I didn't know that Caribean Islands roads were over-crowed by british firemen and their ferraris :-D David Wulff wrote: This might actually require them to work full weeks for their pay like other professions though. This one can't be a valuable argument, please refer to my answer to Mr. Caldecott below. Anyway, look at the situation for the workers at the begining of the XXth century (Google translated)[^] and nowadays. (I agree in UK you are not far to have the same social protection as a Third World country, with a high level of children working and under paid firemen ;P) Nothing came, nothing come, without fighting.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
KaЯl wrote: This one can't be a valuable argument, please refer to my answer to Mr. Caldecott below. Oh it is a perfectly valid arguement: by comparison other workers should be paid about sixty percent more to equal that the firefighters are getting for the same amount of work. :wtf: KaЯl wrote: Nothing came, nothing come, without fighting Rubbish. The last time I checked we didn't live in a Victorian society - the people in the last part of the last century learned that they, the meek populous, can affect change if it is really needed. We live in a, *cough*, democracy, and the lack of support by the public should show the union fighters very clearly that they ain't gonna win this one. Even if we did pay them more, Britian would return to the early nineties tenfold - nay twenty fold! They are holding us ransom for an impossible fee.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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If being a fireman is so confortable and so simple, why don't you join them? They are paid for the work they do (with no regular schedule and working during nights, weekends, and holydays) and for the fact that they risk their life during everyday work. I don't know the problems that forced them to do this kind of strike but I think that people who risk their life and choose this kind of job should have a good reason to do such a strike. Why should they get £30,000 when I'll leave University with masses of government debt to pay off? Because they work to let you finish your studies alive? -- Looking for a new screen-saver? Try FOYD: http://digilander.iol.it/FOYD
Vuemme wrote: If being a fireman is so confortable and so simple, why don't you join them? Because the chances of actually getting in are so slim - thousands of people try and fail each year. Besides which, it is an individuals choice which career they choose to follow, at least in some countries. I'd be no good as a fireman as my skills and more importantly my interests lie elsewhere. Vuemme wrote: I don't know the problems that forced them to do this kind of strike but I think that people who risk their life and choose this kind of job should have a good reason to do such a strike. The cause of the strike was the union telling them to strike. The men and women themselves have no real choice in the matter. Indeed many, many of them are breaking picket lines to go out on call still. They don't want to be there: they've been told to be there. The reason for the strike... well if you find out be sure to tell Andy Gilchrist (the leader of the FBU) as he sure as hell doesn't seem to know. The fairy tales he keeps coming out with can't be upheld, and then he pulls out of negotiations like a little girl thowing her food on the floor because she is denied her dolly. Vuemme wrote: Because they work to let you finish your studies alive? Are they though? :| To all intents and purposes - despite the best efforts of the union thugs and hand full of sympathisers - the army, navy, police and retained firefighters are doing a bloody good job in their place. It seems the firefighters weren't as badly missed as Mr. Gilchrist had hoped. Still, he can keep putting pennies on the railway tracks and areosols on aeroplanes and hope for a major national incident like 11/9 to blind people into worshipping the ground he shits on. Many - and I for one - won't be so quick to swallow it though.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: My brother-in-law was in Rwanda - and he got 90 PENCE a day danger money It's not because your relative was outrageously exploited that others should accept to be f*cked as well. With this argument, you could justify quiet anything, as long as there will be children in China working for 1$ per week.
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
The firefighters are NOWHERE near being f*cked! Most of them are only striking because their union tells them too, and they daren't cross the picket line for fear of being victimised. This is 2002, not 1977. And you missed my point - some firefighters have been COMPLAINING about the job the military have been doing - yet here are people who do a MUCH more dangerous job for MUCH less money WITHOUT complaining about it. The way the armed forces have been portrayed by some firefighters is disgusting. You might think it is OK for essential services to strike, I do not. What price do you put on human life Karl? If people die because of this strike, does it still make it worthwhile? This is NOT some noble "oppressed worker vs exploitive management" dispute. You will find plenty of people that agree that the firefighters deserve some more money - but you won't find that many that think a strike is the solution.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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The firefighters are NOWHERE near being f*cked! Most of them are only striking because their union tells them too, and they daren't cross the picket line for fear of being victimised. This is 2002, not 1977. And you missed my point - some firefighters have been COMPLAINING about the job the military have been doing - yet here are people who do a MUCH more dangerous job for MUCH less money WITHOUT complaining about it. The way the armed forces have been portrayed by some firefighters is disgusting. You might think it is OK for essential services to strike, I do not. What price do you put on human life Karl? If people die because of this strike, does it still make it worthwhile? This is NOT some noble "oppressed worker vs exploitive management" dispute. You will find plenty of people that agree that the firefighters deserve some more money - but you won't find that many that think a strike is the solution.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: What price do you put on human life Karl The price of the dignity. All the difference is here. Perhaps have I a disproportionate sense of honor, however I disavow nor my latin and celtic genes nor my french culture of contestation and fight :) Hasta la victoria siempre ! ;P
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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KaЯl wrote: This one can't be a valuable argument, please refer to my answer to Mr. Caldecott below. Oh it is a perfectly valid arguement: by comparison other workers should be paid about sixty percent more to equal that the firefighters are getting for the same amount of work. :wtf: KaЯl wrote: Nothing came, nothing come, without fighting Rubbish. The last time I checked we didn't live in a Victorian society - the people in the last part of the last century learned that they, the meek populous, can affect change if it is really needed. We live in a, *cough*, democracy, and the lack of support by the public should show the union fighters very clearly that they ain't gonna win this one. Even if we did pay them more, Britian would return to the early nineties tenfold - nay twenty fold! They are holding us ransom for an impossible fee.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: by comparison other workers should be paid about sixty percent more to equal that the firefighters are getting for the same amount of work If these workers think they deserve better, they should strike too, instead of being jealous of others. David Wulff wrote: We live in a, *cough*, democracy, and the lack of support by the public should show the union fighters very clearly that they ain't gonna win this one Glad for you it works like this in your country, in mine it wasn't. Every social progress resulted from solidarity, strikes and hard battles, sometimes deads. The conditions of life for the worker class at the end of the XIXth are well described in "Germinal", from Emile Zola (and a great movie too). About the democracy, you have always a House of Lords, haven't you ? Are you always a subject, and not a citizen ? How could you dare speaking about democracy accepting these kind of feudal laws ? ;P
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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David Wulff wrote: by comparison other workers should be paid about sixty percent more to equal that the firefighters are getting for the same amount of work If these workers think they deserve better, they should strike too, instead of being jealous of others. David Wulff wrote: We live in a, *cough*, democracy, and the lack of support by the public should show the union fighters very clearly that they ain't gonna win this one Glad for you it works like this in your country, in mine it wasn't. Every social progress resulted from solidarity, strikes and hard battles, sometimes deads. The conditions of life for the worker class at the end of the XIXth are well described in "Germinal", from Emile Zola (and a great movie too). About the democracy, you have always a House of Lords, haven't you ? Are you always a subject, and not a citizen ? How could you dare speaking about democracy accepting these kind of feudal laws ? ;P
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
KaЯl wrote: If these workers think they deserve better, they should strike too, instead of being jealous of others. They're not jealous because they earn a decent living wage, just as the fire fighters do. Just where do you think the money to pay the firefighters' forty percent figure would come from? It can't come from the employers - they don't have it. It can't come from the people - we don't have it. It can't come from the government - even they don't have it. We can't even ask Europe for it. It can however be made up from other areas of the public service sector, so the choice is now ours to make: which do we no longer need... hospitals or schools. Because one *will* have to go to fund the increase. I don't think you realise just how close giving in to this strike would be to the collapse of Britian. In fact I don't believe there is any closeness in it at all - it is a certainty. Is this not covered at all by your media?! :wtf: AFWIW, the House of Lords is by and large a very sucessful way of running the system. If it works there's no need to replace it.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: What price do you put on human life Karl The price of the dignity. All the difference is here. Perhaps have I a disproportionate sense of honor, however I disavow nor my latin and celtic genes nor my french culture of contestation and fight :) Hasta la victoria siempre ! ;P
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
You're joking right? :confused: You must be? Or do you really think it's acceptable for people to DIE in fires because the fireman are striking??? For the sake of a bit more cash??? Oh dear. I think this form of politics died out many, many years ago!!! :-D :-D :-D Hasta la victoria siempre! I have a T shirt with this on. I bought it in Cuba!!! ;P
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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You're joking right? :confused: You must be? Or do you really think it's acceptable for people to DIE in fires because the fireman are striking??? For the sake of a bit more cash??? Oh dear. I think this form of politics died out many, many years ago!!! :-D :-D :-D Hasta la victoria siempre! I have a T shirt with this on. I bought it in Cuba!!! ;P
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: for people to DIE in fires because the fireman are striking At the first place, these people are dying because they are caught in a fire (or a car crash, an accident...). Unless the firemen light the fire or push the victims into it, I can't see how they can be held for responsible! Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: I bought it in Cuba :-D
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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KaЯl wrote: If these workers think they deserve better, they should strike too, instead of being jealous of others. They're not jealous because they earn a decent living wage, just as the fire fighters do. Just where do you think the money to pay the firefighters' forty percent figure would come from? It can't come from the employers - they don't have it. It can't come from the people - we don't have it. It can't come from the government - even they don't have it. We can't even ask Europe for it. It can however be made up from other areas of the public service sector, so the choice is now ours to make: which do we no longer need... hospitals or schools. Because one *will* have to go to fund the increase. I don't think you realise just how close giving in to this strike would be to the collapse of Britian. In fact I don't believe there is any closeness in it at all - it is a certainty. Is this not covered at all by your media?! :wtf: AFWIW, the House of Lords is by and large a very sucessful way of running the system. If it works there's no need to replace it.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Is this not covered at all by your media?! Very few, as probably are french, german, italian, or spanish news covered by yours. David Wulff wrote: AFWIW, the House of Lords is by and large a very sucessful way of running the system. If it works there's no need to replace it. I didn't deny that, I just said it's far from being democratic :) David Wulff wrote: would be to the collapse of Britian The collapse of the perfidious Albion will come when we will activate the laser we hide in the Eiffel Tower. Muuhahahaha :-D
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
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David Wulff wrote: Is this not covered at all by your media?! Very few, as probably are french, german, italian, or spanish news covered by yours. David Wulff wrote: AFWIW, the House of Lords is by and large a very sucessful way of running the system. If it works there's no need to replace it. I didn't deny that, I just said it's far from being democratic :) David Wulff wrote: would be to the collapse of Britian The collapse of the perfidious Albion will come when we will activate the laser we hide in the Eiffel Tower. Muuhahahaha :-D
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans
KaЯl wrote: Very few, as probably are french, german, italian, or spanish news covered by yours. Indeed, but from the way you were attacking it it sounds a lot like it was being seriously misrepresented in your press. KaЯl wrote: The collapse of the perfidious Albion will come when we will activate the laser we hide in the Eiffel Tower. Muuhahahaha Ha, we Brits are not fools! We have a giant mirror in geostationary orbit above France and when you fire the laser all our people will flood the streets with hand mirrors, reflecting the laser beam back directly to Paris! :rolleyes:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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KaЯl wrote: Very few, as probably are french, german, italian, or spanish news covered by yours. Indeed, but from the way you were attacking it it sounds a lot like it was being seriously misrepresented in your press. KaЯl wrote: The collapse of the perfidious Albion will come when we will activate the laser we hide in the Eiffel Tower. Muuhahahaha Ha, we Brits are not fools! We have a giant mirror in geostationary orbit above France and when you fire the laser all our people will flood the streets with hand mirrors, reflecting the laser beam back directly to Paris! :rolleyes:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Indeed, but from the way you were attacking it it sounds a lot like it was being seriously misrepresented in your press. My point were more generic than especially on this strike. I know also we have totally different social cultures :) For example, some of my rights, guaranteed by laws: * 5 weeks of payed vacation per year * 35 hours of work per week * Between 5 to 10 days off per year (according to the years) for traditional dates and celebrations. Disgusting, isn't it ? :laugh: You live to work, we work to live :-D [edit] Being in Toulouse, I have no objection to see Paris destroyed, I would perhaps even applause :rolleyes: [/edit]
Ohé Partisans, Ouvriers et Paysans C'est l'alarme! Le Chant des Partisans