Facebook - a shining example of how to make software?
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I read with interest an article linked from the CodeProject Insider regarding how Facebook ships code: "I hope that releasing these notes will help shed some light on how Facebook has managed to push decision-making “down” in its organization without descending into chaos… It’s hard to argue with Facebook’s results or the coherence of Facebook’s product offerings. I think and hope that many consumer internet companies can learn from Facebook’s example." This is not unique, there are a number of articles holding up aspects of facebook as an example for software developers. But an example of what? Facebook is a perfect example of really crappy software. I use it regularly, it's pure crap from every aspect, there is very little thought put into usability, half the time core features don't work properly or at all (multi photo uploading). You can't even load a photo from another website so if you have a flickr photo you have to save to your hard drive and upload. Basic stuff that other "social" sites get from day one. Every operation is counter-intuitive and hard to find. They regularly have epic privacy leaks. There's no end to how bad it is. Any one of us experienced developers here could excrete an equally unusable interface given free time and a few months. There are only two unique things about Facebook as software that are even remotely interesting: 1) The sheer scale of it's user base 2) It's prominence in popular culture. Telerik made a sample UI replacement for Facebook called F!aceDeck[^] out of Silverlight in a month or so as a proof of concept for a Microsoft dev conference. It's slick, clean and easily far better than Facebooks web interface. A month! Facebook has succeeded in spite of their developers shooting themselves in the foot on a regular basis because they are a classic example of the confluence of right place / right time and the most important ingredient of all in any commercial software's success: marketing. For people to be holding it up as an example to other developers and code shops is ludicrous. The only benefit and it's probably not a significant one these days is how they support their huge customer base. Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
There is no failure only feedback
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad. However, that's as good as it gets: I seem to spend more time fending off unwanted friends and rejecting invites to join in with games that want my inside leg measurement. Total bollocks. Just tried F!aceDeck: fail: vastly more annoying than Facebook's retarded interface. Just an opinion: move along. What's with the one vote? Love an explanation as to what crime elicited that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
modified on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:14 PM
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I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad. However, that's as good as it gets: I seem to spend more time fending off unwanted friends and rejecting invites to join in with games that want my inside leg measurement. Total bollocks. Just tried F!aceDeck: fail: vastly more annoying than Facebook's retarded interface. Just an opinion: move along. What's with the one vote? Love an explanation as to what crime elicited that.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
modified on Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:14 PM
digital man wrote:
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad.
I hear this from people all the time. What exactly is so complex about sending an email? Or, gasp, having calling someone up on the phone? Most peoples mobile plans give them so many minutes I would expect this would be trivial (unless it's international calls). I don't see what FB gives you that email doesn't, and email doesn't broadcast your personal info to any idiot with an IP connection.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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digital man wrote:
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad.
I hear this from people all the time. What exactly is so complex about sending an email? Or, gasp, having calling someone up on the phone? Most peoples mobile plans give them so many minutes I would expect this would be trivial (unless it's international calls). I don't see what FB gives you that email doesn't, and email doesn't broadcast your personal info to any idiot with an IP connection.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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I read with interest an article linked from the CodeProject Insider regarding how Facebook ships code: "I hope that releasing these notes will help shed some light on how Facebook has managed to push decision-making “down” in its organization without descending into chaos… It’s hard to argue with Facebook’s results or the coherence of Facebook’s product offerings. I think and hope that many consumer internet companies can learn from Facebook’s example." This is not unique, there are a number of articles holding up aspects of facebook as an example for software developers. But an example of what? Facebook is a perfect example of really crappy software. I use it regularly, it's pure crap from every aspect, there is very little thought put into usability, half the time core features don't work properly or at all (multi photo uploading). You can't even load a photo from another website so if you have a flickr photo you have to save to your hard drive and upload. Basic stuff that other "social" sites get from day one. Every operation is counter-intuitive and hard to find. They regularly have epic privacy leaks. There's no end to how bad it is. Any one of us experienced developers here could excrete an equally unusable interface given free time and a few months. There are only two unique things about Facebook as software that are even remotely interesting: 1) The sheer scale of it's user base 2) It's prominence in popular culture. Telerik made a sample UI replacement for Facebook called F!aceDeck[^] out of Silverlight in a month or so as a proof of concept for a Microsoft dev conference. It's slick, clean and easily far better than Facebooks web interface. A month! Facebook has succeeded in spite of their developers shooting themselves in the foot on a regular basis because they are a classic example of the confluence of right place / right time and the most important ingredient of all in any commercial software's success: marketing. For people to be holding it up as an example to other developers and code shops is ludicrous. The only benefit and it's probably not a significant one these days is how they support their huge customer base. Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
The sheer scale of it's user base
That. Serving such a huge user base is a really interesting technical chalenge and apparently they are able to meet it. As for the rest, I consider FB a complete waste of time which is why deleted my account a while ago.
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digital man wrote:
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad.
I hear this from people all the time. What exactly is so complex about sending an email? Or, gasp, having calling someone up on the phone? Most peoples mobile plans give them so many minutes I would expect this would be trivial (unless it's international calls). I don't see what FB gives you that email doesn't, and email doesn't broadcast your personal info to any idiot with an IP connection.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
I think the key differences between Facebook and email are that Facebook is non-intrusive (except for when it sends an email, which you can opt out of) and Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends. Only when they are interested in what you are doing do they visit your profile. And there is less obligation to actually look at status updates and images posted than there is to look at emails you are sent. Can you imagine how annoying it would be if your Facebook friends sent you an email every time they updated their status and posted a picture? This of course has positives and negatives. On the plus side, it's less work for you and you get to feel connected anytime you want. On the downside, the connection is more superficial and less specific to you. I know I feel way more warm and fuzzy when somebody sends me a letter through postal mail than I do when somebody posts a status update on Facebook. But, hey, no reason you can't have both. :)
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John C wrote:
The sheer scale of it's user base
That. Serving such a huge user base is a really interesting technical chalenge and apparently they are able to meet it. As for the rest, I consider FB a complete waste of time which is why deleted my account a while ago.
:thumbsup: Seems people with intelligence, do the right thing - faceboook deactivate.
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I think the key differences between Facebook and email are that Facebook is non-intrusive (except for when it sends an email, which you can opt out of) and Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends. Only when they are interested in what you are doing do they visit your profile. And there is less obligation to actually look at status updates and images posted than there is to look at emails you are sent. Can you imagine how annoying it would be if your Facebook friends sent you an email every time they updated their status and posted a picture? This of course has positives and negatives. On the plus side, it's less work for you and you get to feel connected anytime you want. On the downside, the connection is more superficial and less specific to you. I know I feel way more warm and fuzzy when somebody sends me a letter through postal mail than I do when somebody posts a status update on Facebook. But, hey, no reason you can't have both. :)
aspdotnetdev wrote:
Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends
How is email so limiting that it can't do that as well. :confused:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
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I read with interest an article linked from the CodeProject Insider regarding how Facebook ships code: "I hope that releasing these notes will help shed some light on how Facebook has managed to push decision-making “down” in its organization without descending into chaos… It’s hard to argue with Facebook’s results or the coherence of Facebook’s product offerings. I think and hope that many consumer internet companies can learn from Facebook’s example." This is not unique, there are a number of articles holding up aspects of facebook as an example for software developers. But an example of what? Facebook is a perfect example of really crappy software. I use it regularly, it's pure crap from every aspect, there is very little thought put into usability, half the time core features don't work properly or at all (multi photo uploading). You can't even load a photo from another website so if you have a flickr photo you have to save to your hard drive and upload. Basic stuff that other "social" sites get from day one. Every operation is counter-intuitive and hard to find. They regularly have epic privacy leaks. There's no end to how bad it is. Any one of us experienced developers here could excrete an equally unusable interface given free time and a few months. There are only two unique things about Facebook as software that are even remotely interesting: 1) The sheer scale of it's user base 2) It's prominence in popular culture. Telerik made a sample UI replacement for Facebook called F!aceDeck[^] out of Silverlight in a month or so as a proof of concept for a Microsoft dev conference. It's slick, clean and easily far better than Facebooks web interface. A month! Facebook has succeeded in spite of their developers shooting themselves in the foot on a regular basis because they are a classic example of the confluence of right place / right time and the most important ingredient of all in any commercial software's success: marketing. For people to be holding it up as an example to other developers and code shops is ludicrous. The only benefit and it's probably not a significant one these days is how they support their huge customer base. Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
There is no failure only feedback
Happy, shiny facebook needs shining methodologies.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus!
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I read with interest an article linked from the CodeProject Insider regarding how Facebook ships code: "I hope that releasing these notes will help shed some light on how Facebook has managed to push decision-making “down” in its organization without descending into chaos… It’s hard to argue with Facebook’s results or the coherence of Facebook’s product offerings. I think and hope that many consumer internet companies can learn from Facebook’s example." This is not unique, there are a number of articles holding up aspects of facebook as an example for software developers. But an example of what? Facebook is a perfect example of really crappy software. I use it regularly, it's pure crap from every aspect, there is very little thought put into usability, half the time core features don't work properly or at all (multi photo uploading). You can't even load a photo from another website so if you have a flickr photo you have to save to your hard drive and upload. Basic stuff that other "social" sites get from day one. Every operation is counter-intuitive and hard to find. They regularly have epic privacy leaks. There's no end to how bad it is. Any one of us experienced developers here could excrete an equally unusable interface given free time and a few months. There are only two unique things about Facebook as software that are even remotely interesting: 1) The sheer scale of it's user base 2) It's prominence in popular culture. Telerik made a sample UI replacement for Facebook called F!aceDeck[^] out of Silverlight in a month or so as a proof of concept for a Microsoft dev conference. It's slick, clean and easily far better than Facebooks web interface. A month! Facebook has succeeded in spite of their developers shooting themselves in the foot on a regular basis because they are a classic example of the confluence of right place / right time and the most important ingredient of all in any commercial software's success: marketing. For people to be holding it up as an example to other developers and code shops is ludicrous. The only benefit and it's probably not a significant one these days is how they support their huge customer base. Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
i think that is taking things a bit far. facebook may not be the "perfect" anything. but what it is, is successful. and long time coming. - the site has changed immensly since 2005 and user growth continued to climb despite the alleged "changes outrage" - facebook is the largest website in the world and doesn't have the reputation of a fail whale like twitter.com There is obviously some talent there.
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I think the key differences between Facebook and email are that Facebook is non-intrusive (except for when it sends an email, which you can opt out of) and Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends. Only when they are interested in what you are doing do they visit your profile. And there is less obligation to actually look at status updates and images posted than there is to look at emails you are sent. Can you imagine how annoying it would be if your Facebook friends sent you an email every time they updated their status and posted a picture? This of course has positives and negatives. On the plus side, it's less work for you and you get to feel connected anytime you want. On the downside, the connection is more superficial and less specific to you. I know I feel way more warm and fuzzy when somebody sends me a letter through postal mail than I do when somebody posts a status update on Facebook. But, hey, no reason you can't have both. :)
I fail to see how any of those things are actually better than email. You can certainly easily post a message to as many people as you'd like with email.
aspdotnetdev wrote:
an you imagine how annoying it would be if your Facebook friends sent you an email every time they updated their status and posted a picture?
Yes, so the normal thing to do, the thing that would actually *increase* communication, would be to email your friend, or gasp, *phone* them, and ask them how things are going!
aspdotnetdev wrote:
On the plus side, it's less work for you and you get to feel connected anytime you want.
That's just it - you get to *feel* more connected, but more than likely you're not. I *feel* like I can fly off the top of the Empire State building every time I hear the theme to Superman, but I know for fact that wouldn't actually work. I remember *feeling* at peace with the Universe when I tried smoking pot back in college, but if memory serves it didn't last long once the miracle of THC wore off! So FB is basically dumbing things down, and making you *feel* like you're accomplishing things, when in fact it's all just a bunch of hand waving and smoke and mirrors.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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aspdotnetdev wrote:
Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends
How is email so limiting that it can't do that as well. :confused:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
Chris Meech wrote:
How is email so limiting that it can't do that as well.
who cares what email can and cannot do. vast millions have demonstrated "this is how we use the web" despite email and what it offers. facebook filled a desire for something email was NOT providing.
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digital man wrote:
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad.
I hear this from people all the time. What exactly is so complex about sending an email? Or, gasp, having calling someone up on the phone? Most peoples mobile plans give them so many minutes I would expect this would be trivial (unless it's international calls). I don't see what FB gives you that email doesn't, and email doesn't broadcast your personal info to any idiot with an IP connection.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
+1. The *intent* behind facebook isn't to allow you to communicate with friends/family. It's intent is to make money by selling your contact info (and your"friends" contact info) to advertisers. Magnanimous they are not. My wife and I don't have facebook accounts.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
John C wrote:
Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
i think that is taking things a bit far. facebook may not be the "perfect" anything. but what it is, is successful. and long time coming. - the site has changed immensly since 2005 and user growth continued to climb despite the alleged "changes outrage" - facebook is the largest website in the world and doesn't have the reputation of a fail whale like twitter.com There is obviously some talent there.
In other words my points exactly, it's only unique in that it has a large user base and is prominent in popular society. Aside from that if it was any other app it would be judged very harshly in terms of usability, security and features. Because it's free and widely used it seems to get a pass where a commercial app would fail in the marketplace with the same problems it has.
There is no failure only feedback
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John C wrote:
Aside from that it's strictly amateur.
i think that is taking things a bit far. facebook may not be the "perfect" anything. but what it is, is successful. and long time coming. - the site has changed immensly since 2005 and user growth continued to climb despite the alleged "changes outrage" - facebook is the largest website in the world and doesn't have the reputation of a fail whale like twitter.com There is obviously some talent there.
Really? Go read the article again. If it's accurate, and who knows if it is, then the access to data that these guys seem to give out their employees seems to be an accident waiting to happen. Unless I'm mistake, there's just not that much to it, beyond the scale factor. And most of those kinds of problems have already been addressed years ago. I think it's reasonably fair to say that there's not a whole lot of uber-innovative R&D going on there. Like most everything else on the web it's a shit load of duct tape and bubble gum, held together with a lot of Hail Mary's and mountain of server machines.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
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+1. The *intent* behind facebook isn't to allow you to communicate with friends/family. It's intent is to make money by selling your contact info (and your"friends" contact info) to advertisers. Magnanimous they are not. My wife and I don't have facebook accounts.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It's intent is to make money by selling your contact info (and your"friends" contact info) to advertisers
oh it is much more than just some addresses and phone numbers. the metrics that facebook sells are massive. Millions of demographically definied "Likes" for Market development. Like having a captive audience to take a survey 24/7 as they check in and out of establishments and rate them.
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digital man wrote:
I have recently started using FB as it is a convenient way of staying in touch with friends and family abroad.
I hear this from people all the time. What exactly is so complex about sending an email? Or, gasp, having calling someone up on the phone? Most peoples mobile plans give them so many minutes I would expect this would be trivial (unless it's international calls). I don't see what FB gives you that email doesn't, and email doesn't broadcast your personal info to any idiot with an IP connection.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
In my understanding, it's the same why answering machines are better than phone calls, and emails are better than answering machines: You don't have to reply See, if Aunt Josepha posts "My cat died", or "Firetrucked Uncle Joe tonight, very pneumatic", you don't have to reply immediately, and often, not at all.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
aspdotnetdev wrote:
Facebook allows you to broadcast updates to all of your friends
How is email so limiting that it can't do that as well. :confused:
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
- Do you have the email address of your every Facebook friend? With the Facebook search functionality, we can search for our friends and they can either accept or ignore our friend request. I am more restrictive with how I give out my email, as I filter most of my email based on a blacklist (the Facebook friend list is about the same as a whitelist). I only typically ask for somebody's email address if I have a specific need to contact them, or maybe if they are going away and I want to keep in touch. 2) You'd look pretty silly if you emailed 200 of your friends to say "Just saw Tron... it was awesome!" On Facebook, messages like that are welcome (as status updates). With email, messages are pushed to users. With Facebook, users pull information selectively.
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+1. The *intent* behind facebook isn't to allow you to communicate with friends/family. It's intent is to make money by selling your contact info (and your"friends" contact info) to advertisers. Magnanimous they are not. My wife and I don't have facebook accounts.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997Same here. I'll only consider an account if the company puts privacy above zuckerburg acquiring his next billion. Sacking him and all his cronies would be a good start. Sacking the entire FB office (viking style) would be better.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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Really? Go read the article again. If it's accurate, and who knows if it is, then the access to data that these guys seem to give out their employees seems to be an accident waiting to happen. Unless I'm mistake, there's just not that much to it, beyond the scale factor. And most of those kinds of problems have already been addressed years ago. I think it's reasonably fair to say that there's not a whole lot of uber-innovative R&D going on there. Like most everything else on the web it's a shit load of duct tape and bubble gum, held together with a lot of Hail Mary's and mountain of server machines.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Jim Crafton wrote:
Like most everything else on the web it's a sh*t load of duct tape and bubble gum, held together with a lot of Hail Mary's and mountain of server machines.
yet microsoft found this to be a solid investment to the tune of millions.
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I fail to see how any of those things are actually better than email. You can certainly easily post a message to as many people as you'd like with email.
aspdotnetdev wrote:
an you imagine how annoying it would be if your Facebook friends sent you an email every time they updated their status and posted a picture?
Yes, so the normal thing to do, the thing that would actually *increase* communication, would be to email your friend, or gasp, *phone* them, and ask them how things are going!
aspdotnetdev wrote:
On the plus side, it's less work for you and you get to feel connected anytime you want.
That's just it - you get to *feel* more connected, but more than likely you're not. I *feel* like I can fly off the top of the Empire State building every time I hear the theme to Superman, but I know for fact that wouldn't actually work. I remember *feeling* at peace with the Universe when I tried smoking pot back in college, but if memory serves it didn't last long once the miracle of THC wore off! So FB is basically dumbing things down, and making you *feel* like you're accomplishing things, when in fact it's all just a bunch of hand waving and smoke and mirrors.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Yeah, like I said, Facebook is more superficial, but it essentially fills the needs of an emotional addict (which we all are, to some degree, and in differing ways). Not everybody wants to have a deep connection with every one of their friends. I personally only have a few friends I am really close to. For the other hundred or so, Facebook is perfect. Facebook could even lead to deeper relationships with some friends. By having a sort of non-committal Facebook relationship, people are more open to "friending" others, and that may lead to deeper connections down the road. Facebook friends are kind of like backup friends. :rolleyes: In any event, Facebook is not the same as email. That's obvious. There are many nuances that make them different, and those differences are significant enough that many people have decided they enjoy both Facebook and email.