IE9 Release Candidate
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:wtf: I can't imagine Alonso or any other one with their eyes closed inside a F1 car... :laugh:
[www.tamelectromecanica.com] Robots, CNC and PLC machines for grinding and polishing.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: [bias] Maybe Ayrton Senna, if anyone could do it, he would be the one. [/bias]
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Not that it will change whether you need Firefox or not but you may be interested in these trends just out of curiosity. Browser usage
Yeah, the discussion is obviously beyond the need of it, but the trend may at least mean something to make someone curious. I wouldn't know I love chocolate if I never tried it.
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When you are a company as big as Microsoft with a history as long as Microsoft and a product chain with the market share of Microsoft where people are not compelled to use the latest version, a lot of effort has to go into making sure that you maintain backwards compatibility. And when there is a time that comes to break the backwards compatibility chain, the legal team gets involved in the whole bureacratic nightmare as well. And what about security issues? The more the browser interacts with the local system the more security issues that come up, and while noone would think of trying to litigate against an open source project, Microsoft is considered the lottery by many. The latest greatest is not what gets market share, most real world users still barely know how to get on the internet with an always on connection. The users are becoming more sophisticated but by and large the largest user group is not. So, take some things into consideration before trying to demonize.
Great assessment, I think most people who work in a large organization can relate. Its a big deal to change the standard browser and backwards compatibility is essential. Implementing poorly defined standards to appease the bleeding edge crowd would be stupid. I'll bet even if IE resolved all of the "issues" most people have with it they still would opt not to use it just on principle. I've just come to accept that IE is a necessary evil, especially in enterprise web development. As long as my employer allows me to use chrome or mozilla on my machine for browsing I could care less. Furthermore, the challenge of developing for a diverse set of browsers adds to my value as a developer. If all I had to do was code to a set of standards, a large portion of the web development work out there could be done by a well written program.
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Well, it's nothing about that really. It's just about how useful and fast it can be. Firefox is much faster than IE in pretty much every site I go (Chrome can be even faster). IE makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes, so slow it can be. I haven't tried IE9 RC yet, but man I can't beleive you don't care about performance of IE and the goodies firefox provide. And Add-Ons are relly useful, I use only a few that has real good use. It's just like when I had my first smartphone. I never neded it, why have it? Today I can't live without it, it makes my life easier in countless ways. Just because you don't use it, it doesn't mean you can't benefit from it. And if a page don't work in firefox, it usually works on IE and vice-versa. So for that I have the IE Tab Add-On on firefox. No need to fire up another browser, just click a tiny icon on the status bar and voilà, the page gets rendered using iexplore.exe and I can instantly use a page (and also save that setting for that specific page) on a compatible renderer. Since I like analogies, I'll throw one more: "People never needed airplanes, but that doesn't mean Cristopher Colombus wouldn't love to have had one".
Good points, and don't misconstrue, I am not saying because I don't use the add ons that others wouldn't find them useful/essential. I am just saying that the 20 year olds I know are more likely to be using the add ons than the 30+ folks. And at least right now, the 30+ crowd is the larger audience. I really don't advocate any one browser over another. Use what you like, or what fits your style but don't put everything else down. Here is another analogy for you. Lets take a car company X that has been around for ages. Company X makes very reliable cars and has a large customer base. Company Y is new on the scene and puts out 5 new models every year each one more flashy than the last and top speed gets higher in each model. Company Y gets the young crowd interested but the folks who have been around for a while sit back and watch while sticking with company X for now. They know that the flash wears off and the speed limit won't let you use all the speed that might be available in your new expensive flashy Y car. As company Y matures (if they are able to survive) the flash starts to become less, the engineering into latest greatest drops off to a slow crawl and reliability improves drawing a larger audience. Zealotry in the browser wars, or OS wars, or Automobile wars may be human nature but is not logical purely emotional. If you enjoy Y, great but that does not mean that X is terrible, just different. If you live on the bleeding edge you get cut more often than everyone else.
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Good points, and don't misconstrue, I am not saying because I don't use the add ons that others wouldn't find them useful/essential. I am just saying that the 20 year olds I know are more likely to be using the add ons than the 30+ folks. And at least right now, the 30+ crowd is the larger audience. I really don't advocate any one browser over another. Use what you like, or what fits your style but don't put everything else down. Here is another analogy for you. Lets take a car company X that has been around for ages. Company X makes very reliable cars and has a large customer base. Company Y is new on the scene and puts out 5 new models every year each one more flashy than the last and top speed gets higher in each model. Company Y gets the young crowd interested but the folks who have been around for a while sit back and watch while sticking with company X for now. They know that the flash wears off and the speed limit won't let you use all the speed that might be available in your new expensive flashy Y car. As company Y matures (if they are able to survive) the flash starts to become less, the engineering into latest greatest drops off to a slow crawl and reliability improves drawing a larger audience. Zealotry in the browser wars, or OS wars, or Automobile wars may be human nature but is not logical purely emotional. If you enjoy Y, great but that does not mean that X is terrible, just different. If you live on the bleeding edge you get cut more often than everyone else.
I agree with your analogy, but I don't think it fits when choosing IE. When reliability comes to the table, there are countless reports of how unreliable IE can be. Although IE is on the scene for a longer time, instead of mature, it has grown old, cluncky and unreliable. It's like IE hasn't learned the lessons and it's not just about the add-on and how they can make your life easier, but it's about performance and reliability, which is too not a better choice, at least for now. I beleive firefox is already in a mature state (soon Chrome will probably follow) and performance is very noticeable. I really doubt you prefer loading pages slower. Although you might feel more comfortable working with IE because it feels more familiar to you, I don't beleive that's enough to dismiss other choices. Maybe your personality resists more to new things, but once you open up to new experiences, they might surprisingly pay off, it's just a matter of beeing more open minded. I know that because I dismissed a lot of things out of the resistance to something new (or something I didn't want to learn all over again), to only later regret I haven't tried that before. In IT, I've resisted using Relational Entities to Object mappers, just because I've always loved doing stuff the hardcore way and always hated wizards and automated tools. Well, I found that it could be really useful sometimes. I've also resisted watching Harry Potter: "Oh, that stuff is for little kids". And hey, I was pleasantly surprized the day I had nothing else to watch on TV before going to bed. And american automobile industry felt this the hard way. Many of them either gone bankrupt, sold or aquired by other companies because they failed to inovate. Look at good old General Motors. A very reliable company that went downhill. They were reliable and had more maturity than most companhies in the world. Still they failed to realize things changed. Even though they were reliable, it wasn't enough. They failed to inovate on design, technology and environmental subjects. The Asian folks simply kicked them out of the market and brazilian chevrolet (which is also loosing a lot of market) played one of the biggest roles to not let things get worse to GM divisions in US. Brazilian chevrolet was on of the most profitable ones when the crisis struck GM. When it comes to competition there are a lot of cards to play. There's the emotional of course, but it's hardly only that. Wins the ones that can handle well both logical and emotional parts. I'm nothing against
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It makes little sense to support a company and browser that releases a new updated browser that's still several years behind the competition. And just because the W3C is slow to evolve doesn't mean other companies have to be held back by their lack of progress. Lets get real. What's one of the top activities users do in a web browser? They upload file(s). With IE you either have to use a 3rd party plugin such as Silverlight or Flash to get multiple file uploads or spend all day uploading files one at a time. Try editing a photo album online with 100s of photos you need to upload. You would have to be bird-brained yourself to stick with a browser such as IE9 that's stuck in the stone age for such a simple task. Hey it's 2011 how about we get a browser that can do file uploads with a proper progress indicator without having to use a 3rd part plugin. Want to attach multiple images to your email message? With chrome and gmail it's as simple as drag'n'drop right onto the email. Try that in hotmail with any IE browser. I'll move to whatever browser that's best in class and that's certainly not IE9.
Todd Smith
Todd Smith wrote:
With IE you either have to use a 3rd party plugin such as Silverlight or Flash to get multiple file uploads or spend all day uploading files one at a time.
Chris, et al. has hidden the Silverlight/Flash well in the Article Submission Wizard. I was able to use IE9 to upload my last article and all of the support files in one day.
Todd Smith wrote:
Want to attach multiple images to your email message?
I don't have a problem with this. Outlook works fine.
Todd Smith wrote:
ry that in hotmail with any IE browser.
Did you ever consider it is the application, not the browser? Guess its just easier to rant than think.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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When you are a company as big as Microsoft with a history as long as Microsoft and a product chain with the market share of Microsoft where people are not compelled to use the latest version, a lot of effort has to go into making sure that you maintain backwards compatibility. And when there is a time that comes to break the backwards compatibility chain, the legal team gets involved in the whole bureacratic nightmare as well. And what about security issues? The more the browser interacts with the local system the more security issues that come up, and while noone would think of trying to litigate against an open source project, Microsoft is considered the lottery by many. The latest greatest is not what gets market share, most real world users still barely know how to get on the internet with an always on connection. The users are becoming more sophisticated but by and large the largest user group is not. So, take some things into consideration before trying to demonize.
Good points. It's just easier to rant than think.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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:laugh: Probably I'm still in the group of the ones that still believe that they can do nice things... I've never tried firefox... so I can't compare... but IE9 it is working nice by now and I like it and enjoy using it.
[www.tamelectromecanica.com] Robots, CNC and PLC machines for grinding and polishing.
Joan Murt wrote:
I've never tried firefox...
Once you go FF, you never go back. Been using it since IE7 (and the hideous UI) was released. Very good browser.
Everybody SHUT UP until I finish my coffee...
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Todd Smith wrote:
With IE you either have to use a 3rd party plugin such as Silverlight or Flash to get multiple file uploads or spend all day uploading files one at a time.
Chris, et al. has hidden the Silverlight/Flash well in the Article Submission Wizard. I was able to use IE9 to upload my last article and all of the support files in one day.
Todd Smith wrote:
Want to attach multiple images to your email message?
I don't have a problem with this. Outlook works fine.
Todd Smith wrote:
ry that in hotmail with any IE browser.
Did you ever consider it is the application, not the browser? Guess its just easier to rant than think.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
That makes sense. Buy a $300 application so you can do multiple file uploads easier. Pure genius :thumbsup:
Todd Smith
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IE9 RC has an acid3[^] test of 95/100 Chrome has an acid3 test of 82/100 Firefox 3.6.12 has an acid3 test of 94/100 (EDIT: Chrome actually has 100/100, some extension I had installed made Chrome fail. I will investigate further...) (EDIT2: the following extensions muck with the ACID3 test: csscan, jsshell, measureit!)
"If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams "Let me get this straight. You know her. She knows you. But she wants to eat him. And everybody's okay with this?"
I am running both Firefox and IE8. Firefox gave me an acid level of 94 and IE8 gave a level of 20. I look forward to IE9.
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IE9 RC has an acid3[^] test of 95/100 Chrome has an acid3 test of 82/100 Firefox 3.6.12 has an acid3 test of 94/100 (EDIT: Chrome actually has 100/100, some extension I had installed made Chrome fail. I will investigate further...) (EDIT2: the following extensions muck with the ACID3 test: csscan, jsshell, measureit!)
"If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams "Let me get this straight. You know her. She knows you. But she wants to eat him. And everybody's okay with this?"