Yes, my first customers! But i don't know how much to charge him :(
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
Remember that you may have several rates: Short term work rate (high) Long term work rate (lower) Custard multiplier (1.0 - 3.0 times the long or short term rate) The Custard multiplier depends on the ratio of Customer to Bast@rd! If the Customer is always giving changes, bad info etc., then raise the ratio.
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together. Digital man: "You are, in short, an idiot with the IQ of an ant and the intellectual capacity of a hose pipe."
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£40 won't buy many Krugerrands. ;P
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
Zeroth - The customer is always right. It is your job to ensure that you understand what the customer thinks they are getting, and to deliver it. First - unless he is an IT savvy chap, forget UML diagrams and tables - do some screen mock-ups (even if they're in crayon) to show him what it will do - he doesn't give a rat's how it works, so long as it does. Second - be clear in your own mind exactly what is required. Not only what the software will do, but who owns the source code - what happens with bugs - when is a bug not an additional feature. You and he need to be completely clear up front to avoid later repercussions. Third - He's your first customer - so be nice. Make sure you are going to cover your basic costs without fail - but don't try to make too much profit - allow yourself to learn by your mistakes without making him pay for them (e.g. if something should take you 2 days to product, but you stuff up and take five days - think about charging him for 3 days) Fourth - Be completely honest. do that now, gain his trust. When he wants some changes, he;ll come back. He'll tell his friends and colleagues about you. Fifth - make sure that you have his sign off (not just verbal) on exactly what the software will be doing. it may sound all friendly when you start, but if he thinks of something obvious to him later down the line, and you need big rewirtes to achieve it, nobody's going to come out a winner. Sixth - under promise and over achieve. if you think it can be ready in two months - tell him three. If you can do it in two months, he'll think you're a god. Promise it in two and deliver in three and, however good it is, he'll just remember having to wait. Seventh - Either quote a fixed price - in which case no.2 above is even more important - or an hourly rate. If the latter, then be clear about approximately how long it's going to take - and see Six above - and come in under budget. Eighth - Be prepared to be expected to do lots of small changes (or bug fixes) after the first install. These may need to be done for free, so make sure you've taken that into account with your charging structure. Think about some sort of support fee (e.g. buy 10 hours support, up front, for the first year, at a 20% discounted rate. Ninth - And finally - Good Luck!!!
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
hervebags wrote:
Please Leppie, don't let me down!
I would say about R150 - R250 an hour. But keep in mind, how long it will take. Time estimation is important here, and only you can be the judge how long it will take you. That comes with experience. I have seen supposedly experienced people completely underestimate themselves over and over by a factor of 8 (yes, eight!) times. That is a hard one, I tend to over estimate a little and give extra, or make the customer happy by coming in less than the estimate price. Also beware of possible screw ups on your part that may happen, like the dog eating your source code, etc. So to start, start with the high number, and then let the customer bargain a bit. No point going low to start with, then it will just go lower. Lastly, make sure you have a proper after sales support contract, in case you need to provide extras. Also take into consideration possible bugs to fix, that may be your fault, or just a lack of specification. Hard call again whether one should charge for bug fixes. If it is a small one, then it does not matter that much. As long as you can fix it fast (and correctly) :)
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I charge R250/h, which is at the lower end of average for a casual freelancer, althought I know someone who gets paid R100/h, but he gets 50-100 hours a month, extra cash, not his main job. A project like you describe would probably take me about 30 hours, without the food recommendation, at a careful estimate. I could probably do it in 20, but you know how things work out. You don't mention your skill level in your post, which is quite important in a matter like this.
I am a c and C++ programmer. I have about 4 years of experience with console applications. I am a researcher (computer vision). If this project was a console application i would do it in maximum 2 weeks. I have used the MFC framework before but, i'm not very familiar with it. That is the only part of the project that will take longer to do. I have been playing with windows forms this past week and it is pretty fun.
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Zeroth - The customer is always right. It is your job to ensure that you understand what the customer thinks they are getting, and to deliver it. First - unless he is an IT savvy chap, forget UML diagrams and tables - do some screen mock-ups (even if they're in crayon) to show him what it will do - he doesn't give a rat's how it works, so long as it does. Second - be clear in your own mind exactly what is required. Not only what the software will do, but who owns the source code - what happens with bugs - when is a bug not an additional feature. You and he need to be completely clear up front to avoid later repercussions. Third - He's your first customer - so be nice. Make sure you are going to cover your basic costs without fail - but don't try to make too much profit - allow yourself to learn by your mistakes without making him pay for them (e.g. if something should take you 2 days to product, but you stuff up and take five days - think about charging him for 3 days) Fourth - Be completely honest. do that now, gain his trust. When he wants some changes, he;ll come back. He'll tell his friends and colleagues about you. Fifth - make sure that you have his sign off (not just verbal) on exactly what the software will be doing. it may sound all friendly when you start, but if he thinks of something obvious to him later down the line, and you need big rewirtes to achieve it, nobody's going to come out a winner. Sixth - under promise and over achieve. if you think it can be ready in two months - tell him three. If you can do it in two months, he'll think you're a god. Promise it in two and deliver in three and, however good it is, he'll just remember having to wait. Seventh - Either quote a fixed price - in which case no.2 above is even more important - or an hourly rate. If the latter, then be clear about approximately how long it's going to take - and see Six above - and come in under budget. Eighth - Be prepared to be expected to do lots of small changes (or bug fixes) after the first install. These may need to be done for free, so make sure you've taken that into account with your charging structure. Think about some sort of support fee (e.g. buy 10 hours support, up front, for the first year, at a 20% discounted rate. Ninth - And finally - Good Luck!!!
___________________________________________ .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
Well said :)
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I am a c and C++ programmer. I have about 4 years of experience with console applications. I am a researcher (computer vision). If this project was a console application i would do it in maximum 2 weeks. I have used the MFC framework before but, i'm not very familiar with it. That is the only part of the project that will take longer to do. I have been playing with windows forms this past week and it is pretty fun.
Hmmm, I would recommend going with WinForms with C# given your experience/qualification. The jump to basic C# shouldn't be any problem, but maybe you should look at something like MS LightSwitch, which allows you to build apps using a designer and very little code. Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
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Hey bru, you should provide a bio, so fellow Saffers can make you out, ek se.
lol. Danki for the advice, bru.
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Christian Graus wrote:
1/3 on acceptance
Goodness! You are generous - I only allow 10% retention.
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together. Digital man: "You are, in short, an idiot with the IQ of an ant and the intellectual capacity of a hose pipe."
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
hervebags wrote:
I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes.
UML? Why are you calling me names, and what's an emmal, anyway? Classes? Hey, I'm not going back to school! You can keep that sh1t! You'll be talking to a guy who runs a gym, not to a dev in the office next to yours. He won't give a bluddy blue damn how you process the data; he'll want to know about what his customers will have to do to enter data (so it had better be damned simple and intuitive), and how they'll get the feedback. Mock up a user interface, with all the things you think it needs, and print out hard copies, so he can cross out the bits he doesn't like, and draw the things that he wants.
ah, the line-feed-after-a-formatting-tag problem is fixed! What bliss!
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
I had the same problem with my first customer :sigh: As I had taught myself to code - I didn't quite know what "should" be charged. I didn't feel comfortable going with a specific charge as some things may require Google investigation - and technically was furthering my career opportunities. So on that basis, I looked at how much work would be involved in creating the app (also a DB with a winforms UI), and decided on how much would I be happy in receiving as appropriate remuneration for the effort. It took about 140 hours to complete and I charged R4000, which was about R30 an hour.
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I think Leppie might be the person who can give me the best advise (he also lives in South Africa) but, i need words of wisdom from anyone who is willing to give me some... I finally have my first customer. That is a good thing :thumbsup: The only problem is that i don't know how much he should pay me. He would like me to tell him how much i charge. This is what the project looks like: There is a database with a dozen tables. Some basic processing have to be done on those data. He want me to develop a windows application with a user interface. It is a application that will be used in a gym: Every time you go to the gym you have fill in all the exercises you have done. The program is supposed to show you your progress. There are also other details like food recommendation.... I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes. But I also don't know how long i should tell him the project will take. :confused: Anybody, please, give me some words of wisdom. Please Leppie, don't let me down! Regards, Herve
"Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy if both are frozen." - Edward V Berard
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An estimating formula I was shown recently is (2*B + E + 3*W)/6 B = best estimate (optimistic) E = expected W = worst case A good way of correcting your initial estimate on time required.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
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I had the same problem with my first customer :sigh: As I had taught myself to code - I didn't quite know what "should" be charged. I didn't feel comfortable going with a specific charge as some things may require Google investigation - and technically was furthering my career opportunities. So on that basis, I looked at how much work would be involved in creating the app (also a DB with a winforms UI), and decided on how much would I be happy in receiving as appropriate remuneration for the effort. It took about 140 hours to complete and I charged R4000, which was about R30 an hour.
I work on the principle that my clients only pay for what I know, not what I must Google, so I charge a fixed price for a number of hours, but if I quote 24 hours, I only promise delivery next week, to allow for me getting stuck etc.
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An estimating formula I was shown recently is (2*B + E + 3*W)/6 B = best estimate (optimistic) E = expected W = worst case A good way of correcting your initial estimate on time required.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
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But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work. So... methinks you need to have the guts to inform your customer that such changes will add to the total cost of the job. Not so east, especially if both customer and consultant are relatively fresh in the business of ordering/delivering contract work. And when he comes with those changes during the project (trust me he will, everybody does), you must stand up and hold your ground. You need to agree that: "Change Requests will be charged on a per case basis.", depending on your relation to the guy you may put it down in writing (good idea) or agree verbally. Good Luck!
..................... Life is too shor
megaadam wrote:
But in fixed price consulting projects there is another huge risk, and this must be kept in mind. The customer will "always" come with changes along the way. (modifications, extensions, he sees the first GUI : "How about adding a button for this?", "I really need a graph of this too", "I need to add this data to the database, but the app must remain compatible with the old DB" ) That will cost you extra work.
Wrong, about the last part anyway.;) As someone said at a seminar I attended, thats where all the profit and money lies. So you get your customer, you draw up a contract on what is going to be done and agree on the price. When the first change request comes in you tell them it's not part of the contract and inform them that you can do it, but it will add time AND cost to the project (time and cost is decided per CR, with a relativly high cost). So the extra work will not cost you anything, it will cost the customer (and they'll really think about what CR's they actually want). I agree with you, it's something that has to be considered.
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hervebags wrote:
Please Leppie, don't let me down!
I would say about R150 - R250 an hour. But keep in mind, how long it will take. Time estimation is important here, and only you can be the judge how long it will take you. That comes with experience. I have seen supposedly experienced people completely underestimate themselves over and over by a factor of 8 (yes, eight!) times. That is a hard one, I tend to over estimate a little and give extra, or make the customer happy by coming in less than the estimate price. Also beware of possible screw ups on your part that may happen, like the dog eating your source code, etc. So to start, start with the high number, and then let the customer bargain a bit. No point going low to start with, then it will just go lower. Lastly, make sure you have a proper after sales support contract, in case you need to provide extras. Also take into consideration possible bugs to fix, that may be your fault, or just a lack of specification. Hard call again whether one should charge for bug fixes. If it is a small one, then it does not matter that much. As long as you can fix it fast (and correctly) :)
Thanks, Leppie. :thumbsup:
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Well said :)
leppie wrote:
Well said
Indeed!
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hervebags wrote:
I am meeting him on Saturday to give him a presentation of what i will do. I have a UML diagram and i am done writing the prototype of my classes.
UML? Why are you calling me names, and what's an emmal, anyway? Classes? Hey, I'm not going back to school! You can keep that sh1t! You'll be talking to a guy who runs a gym, not to a dev in the office next to yours. He won't give a bluddy blue damn how you process the data; he'll want to know about what his customers will have to do to enter data (so it had better be damned simple and intuitive), and how they'll get the feedback. Mock up a user interface, with all the things you think it needs, and print out hard copies, so he can cross out the bits he doesn't like, and draw the things that he wants.
ah, the line-feed-after-a-formatting-tag problem is fixed! What bliss!
:-D Ok, i get it. I am not gonna give him all those details. ;P
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Hmmm, I would recommend going with WinForms with C# given your experience/qualification. The jump to basic C# shouldn't be any problem, but maybe you should look at something like MS LightSwitch, which allows you to build apps using a designer and very little code. Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
Brady Kelly wrote:
Also, you can always shout if you need any help. Where do you stay?
Hey, thanks. I live in Plumstead, Cape town. Do you live in Cape town too?
