Microsoft must be quaking in its boots
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I'm always instantly curious when people say that... why? Office (and I use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night) are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform (something I can't say of the OpenOffice productivity app's the last time I tried them which were the first software programs I've used in years that I actually had to stop and tihnk "how do I do this"). All I can ever seem to get out of people is an "ooh" and an "ahh" and the odd "halibut". Please inform me, I am genuinely curious to know what I must be missing. :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: Office ... are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform I tried using Office tools for many years, and still find their equation editor much harder to use than LATEX, and to boot, it produces far poorer output. It takes me many tens of minutes to enter a complicated formula in equation editor, and the result looks lousy. In LATEX, I can usually write the equation in a sensible manner in less than a minute. and have output that looks beautiful. Since most of my writing makes extensive use of chemical formulae and equations, Word is just a productivity killer. In the end, I pretty much gave up on office and moved back to LATEX two years ago and found it a great relief. Another problem I had with Word is that customizing numbered lists (equivalent of <ol> ) are very hard to set up. It's hard to set up nested numbered lists with custom bullets or numbering schemes and non-numbered paragraphs intercalated between numbered list items. Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters. Perhaps there's a good way to do this, but it never seemed obvious to me, even after poring over the on-line help for a long time. In contrast, LATEX's itemize and enumerate environments work flawlessly and intuitively. Finally, a great advantage I hadn't expected with the move from Word to LATEX was the ability to search equations (how do you do search and replace on the Word equivalent of \lim_{x \rightarrow 42} \int_{-\infty}^{x} f(x) dx)? Why couldn't Science, in the long run, serve As well as one's uncleared lunch-table or Mme X en Culottes de Matador? James Merrill
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I'm always instantly curious when people say that... why? Office (and I use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night) are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform (something I can't say of the OpenOffice productivity app's the last time I tried them which were the first software programs I've used in years that I actually had to stop and tihnk "how do I do this"). All I can ever seem to get out of people is an "ooh" and an "ahh" and the odd "halibut". Please inform me, I am genuinely curious to know what I must be missing. :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
David Wulff wrote: use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night i completly agree with you David. I use what ever get's the task at hand done the fast and most efficiently. While I have used star office for a few months previously... (it was fairly easy to use. just use help to find something you're looking for) ...i find that it is better to use MS Office. It's what most people know how to use. And if i need to tell someone how to change/create a document when I'm not there, I don't want them using something completely foreign to them. Perhaps thats something that needs to change....:-D ******************** * SteveMcLenithan * steve@steve-mac.com * http://steve-mac.com ********************
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David Wulff wrote: Office ... are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform I tried using Office tools for many years, and still find their equation editor much harder to use than LATEX, and to boot, it produces far poorer output. It takes me many tens of minutes to enter a complicated formula in equation editor, and the result looks lousy. In LATEX, I can usually write the equation in a sensible manner in less than a minute. and have output that looks beautiful. Since most of my writing makes extensive use of chemical formulae and equations, Word is just a productivity killer. In the end, I pretty much gave up on office and moved back to LATEX two years ago and found it a great relief. Another problem I had with Word is that customizing numbered lists (equivalent of <ol> ) are very hard to set up. It's hard to set up nested numbered lists with custom bullets or numbering schemes and non-numbered paragraphs intercalated between numbered list items. Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters. Perhaps there's a good way to do this, but it never seemed obvious to me, even after poring over the on-line help for a long time. In contrast, LATEX's itemize and enumerate environments work flawlessly and intuitively. Finally, a great advantage I hadn't expected with the move from Word to LATEX was the ability to search equations (how do you do search and replace on the Word equivalent of \lim_{x \rightarrow 42} \int_{-\infty}^{x} f(x) dx)? Why couldn't Science, in the long run, serve As well as one's uncleared lunch-table or Mme X en Culottes de Matador? James Merrill
Jonathan Gilligan wrote: Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters Right click on the number and say restart numbering.
I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder Microsoft has reinvented the wheel, this time they made it round. -Peterchen on VS.NET
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David Wulff wrote: Office ... are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform I tried using Office tools for many years, and still find their equation editor much harder to use than LATEX, and to boot, it produces far poorer output. It takes me many tens of minutes to enter a complicated formula in equation editor, and the result looks lousy. In LATEX, I can usually write the equation in a sensible manner in less than a minute. and have output that looks beautiful. Since most of my writing makes extensive use of chemical formulae and equations, Word is just a productivity killer. In the end, I pretty much gave up on office and moved back to LATEX two years ago and found it a great relief. Another problem I had with Word is that customizing numbered lists (equivalent of <ol> ) are very hard to set up. It's hard to set up nested numbered lists with custom bullets or numbering schemes and non-numbered paragraphs intercalated between numbered list items. Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters. Perhaps there's a good way to do this, but it never seemed obvious to me, even after poring over the on-line help for a long time. In contrast, LATEX's itemize and enumerate environments work flawlessly and intuitively. Finally, a great advantage I hadn't expected with the move from Word to LATEX was the ability to search equations (how do you do search and replace on the Word equivalent of \lim_{x \rightarrow 42} \int_{-\infty}^{x} f(x) dx)? Why couldn't Science, in the long run, serve As well as one's uncleared lunch-table or Mme X en Culottes de Matador? James Merrill
Jonathan Gilligan wrote: Another problem I had with Word is that customizing numbered lists (equivalent of
) are very hard to set up. It's hard to set up nested numbered lists with custom bullets or numbering schemes and non-numbered paragraphs intercalated between numbered list items. Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters. I will second that. Word is very poor with this. At times I have simply removed all numbering and tried to start over in order to get things right :((
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life! -
David Wulff wrote: use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night i completly agree with you David. I use what ever get's the task at hand done the fast and most efficiently. While I have used star office for a few months previously... (it was fairly easy to use. just use help to find something you're looking for) ...i find that it is better to use MS Office. It's what most people know how to use. And if i need to tell someone how to change/create a document when I'm not there, I don't want them using something completely foreign to them. Perhaps thats something that needs to change....:-D ******************** * SteveMcLenithan * steve@steve-mac.com * http://steve-mac.com ********************
Steve McLenithan wrote: It's what most people know how to use Don't kid yourself - less than half of Word's users know how to print preview, and less than half of the half remaining even know Mail Merge exists. Out of the remainder there is even a proportion who don't know that you can save documents. The problem with so many of Microsoft's applications is that they *appear* easy to use so people who've figured out how to use the start menu think they are instantly experts in every Microsoft product. At least with Linux you had the element of difficulty, but even now that isn't written in stone, which is not a Good Thing™ in my eyes.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
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Poor IBM... :((
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Shog9 This is my December These are my snow covered dreams This is me pretending This is all I need...
Eek! Well it can't make Rational's customer support any worse...or can it??? Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
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I'm always instantly curious when people say that... why? Office (and I use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night) are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform (something I can't say of the OpenOffice productivity app's the last time I tried them which were the first software programs I've used in years that I actually had to stop and tihnk "how do I do this"). All I can ever seem to get out of people is an "ooh" and an "ahh" and the odd "halibut". Please inform me, I am genuinely curious to know what I must be missing. :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
Basically my point is that a word processor is a simple concept, and Word's implementation of that concept is complex... kinda like Rational's implementation of UML via Rational Rose. For A WSYWIG word processor, all I need is something that word processes and spell/grammar checks. Word on the other hand is the swiss army knife of word processors, there's so much in there that has very little to do with actual word processing... thats what makes it complicated. I don't use Outlook, so I'm clueless about that one. Had a few run ins with Visio in the pre-microsoft days, but I don't have any use for it lately. In fact I've switched over to StarOffice, a bit because I like spreading my money around (although I own Office 2k), a bit because the Office install is horribly long and painful, and mostly because I don't need the 3000 extra things that Office can do. I just want to word process and read files sent to me. I switched over to StarOffice six months ago or so, its great for me, but probably not for everyone.
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Shog9 wrote: Poor IBM... LOL. Exactly what I thought. The worst two developer products I had to work with are Rational Clear Case and Rational Rose. Real productivity killers. I think that Bill Gates is celebrating now. ;P :beer:
The worst two developer products I had to work with are Rational Clear Case and Rational Rose. Real productivity killers. How so? Do you use anything else? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus -
I'm always instantly curious when people say that... why? Office (and I use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night) are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform (something I can't say of the OpenOffice productivity app's the last time I tried them which were the first software programs I've used in years that I actually had to stop and tihnk "how do I do this"). All I can ever seem to get out of people is an "ooh" and an "ahh" and the odd "halibut". Please inform me, I am genuinely curious to know what I must be missing. :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
My frustration with the Office apps is the 'helpful' little things they do for me. For instance, I try to set my font to Verdana (which is simple, clean and easy to read) and Office 'helpfully' sets it back to Times New Crap (which is ugly at normal point sizes). I once went so far as to remove all Times*.ttf files from my system to no avail. Another thing is the 'helpful' autocorrect: it's nice most of the time, but the odd time it changes something I intended and then changes it again when I've gone back and fixed it. Then there's Excel 'helpfully' asking me if I want to save a .dbf (which has not even changed) as an .xls because I'll miss out on some formatting. Also, I hate it when I copy something to clipboard in Excel and it vanishes if I don't paste it immediately. Which reminds me of that obnoxious 'paste dialog' that the new version of office has. I keep closing it, Office keeps showing it. The epitome of Office Brand Helpfulness™ is/was clippy. It's so 'helpful' you want to strangle someone. Office is like a backseat driver who tries to grab the steering wheel. Unfortunately, XP has gone with the Office 'helpful' model. Think file sharing, which was easy enough in 2K. In XP I don't even understand how to use it, so I had to turn 'simple' file sharing off to use the 2K system.
DWORD dwCaffeine = 0x00c0ffee;
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Jonathan Gilligan wrote: Another problem I had with Word is that customizing numbered lists (equivalent of
) are very hard to set up. It's hard to set up nested numbered lists with custom bullets or numbering schemes and non-numbered paragraphs intercalated between numbered list items. Word is very bad about trying to decide for me when to start the list counters over at 1 and when to keep incrementing the counters. I will second that. Word is very poor with this. At times I have simply removed all numbering and tried to start over in order to get things right :((
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!Re: Numbered lists I very much like Word, but I want to third this complaint. If you have a numbered list and/or outline and drag and drop paragraphs, it doesn't do what you want it to do, which is automatically renumber everything. It's annoying as hell and they still haven't fixed it in Word XP. Like Paul, I usually remove all the numbering and then reapply it.
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My frustration with the Office apps is the 'helpful' little things they do for me. For instance, I try to set my font to Verdana (which is simple, clean and easy to read) and Office 'helpfully' sets it back to Times New Crap (which is ugly at normal point sizes). I once went so far as to remove all Times*.ttf files from my system to no avail. Another thing is the 'helpful' autocorrect: it's nice most of the time, but the odd time it changes something I intended and then changes it again when I've gone back and fixed it. Then there's Excel 'helpfully' asking me if I want to save a .dbf (which has not even changed) as an .xls because I'll miss out on some formatting. Also, I hate it when I copy something to clipboard in Excel and it vanishes if I don't paste it immediately. Which reminds me of that obnoxious 'paste dialog' that the new version of office has. I keep closing it, Office keeps showing it. The epitome of Office Brand Helpfulness™ is/was clippy. It's so 'helpful' you want to strangle someone. Office is like a backseat driver who tries to grab the steering wheel. Unfortunately, XP has gone with the Office 'helpful' model. Think file sharing, which was easy enough in 2K. In XP I don't even understand how to use it, so I had to turn 'simple' file sharing off to use the 2K system.
DWORD dwCaffeine = 0x00c0ffee;
If you use Office XP most of those gripes are nullified... Daniel Ferguson wrote: For instance, I try to set my font to Verdana (which is simple, clean and easy to read) and Office 'helpfully' sets it back to Times New Crap I've never experienced that as far as I can remember since I first used Word 2000, but certainly not in Word 2002 - the formatting task pane gives you great and easy to use/understand control over such things. Daniel Ferguson wrote: Another thing is the 'helpful' autocorrect: it's nice most of the time, but the odd time it changes something I intended and then changes it again when I've gone back and fixed it. Bring on Office XP and Smart Tags - they are your invaluable friend here. One click and you're set for life. =) Daniel Ferguson wrote: Then there's Excel 'helpfully' asking me if I want to save a .dbf (which has not even changed) as an .xls because I'll miss out on some formatting I can't check that but I expect that could still be the case. :s Daniel Ferguson wrote: Which reminds me of that obnoxious 'paste dialog' that the new version of office has. I keep closing it, Office keeps showing it. I think the feature you talk about was present in Office 2000, and assume that is what you are talking about because with Office XP all I had to do was close it when it first appeared and it asked me if I ever wanted to see it again (unless I used the CTRL+C-CTRL+C double copy shortcut). I said no and I haven't seen it since without deliberately brining it up (which I do from time to time as it is very useful for copying multiple sections of one document to another). Daniel Ferguson wrote: The epitome of Office Brand Helpfulness™ is/was clippy. It's so 'helpful' you want to strangle someone I never had a problem with Clippy - with Office 2000 I always had the cat character visible because it was nice to watch it purr when you saved your document and use a typewriter when you print something. It was a little humorous distraction - something to play with. With Office XP I have never seen it unless I was checking grammer advice (it is off by default) - I use the new help box on the menu bar. The personalised menus are a god save but seem to share the same popularity as poor Clippy. :(( Daniel Ferguson wrote: Office is like a backseat driver who tries to grab the steering wheel. Ni
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I'm always instantly curious when people say that... why? Office (and I use Word, Excel, Access, Viso and Outlook day and night) are incredibly simple tools to use - everything is logically structured and indeed they certainly seem to have been designed for people who tasks to perform (something I can't say of the OpenOffice productivity app's the last time I tried them which were the first software programs I've used in years that I actually had to stop and tihnk "how do I do this"). All I can ever seem to get out of people is an "ooh" and an "ahh" and the odd "halibut". Please inform me, I am genuinely curious to know what I must be missing. :confused:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
Absolutely. Our secretary set up a word document for offers, that takes an address from the "contacts" database (access) and has an embedded excel sheet where she quickly can select the products the customer might want. It's a mess, e.g. we cannot ever delete recors from the contacts, since the record index must match the primary key for the whole thing to work. But she set it up all alone, it works since years, and never ever one of the "IT guys" had to have a look at it. I'm impressed, and I never get tired to tell this.
If I could find a souvenir / just to prove the world was here [sighist]
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Steve McLenithan wrote: It's what most people know how to use Don't kid yourself - less than half of Word's users know how to print preview, and less than half of the half remaining even know Mail Merge exists. Out of the remainder there is even a proportion who don't know that you can save documents. The problem with so many of Microsoft's applications is that they *appear* easy to use so people who've figured out how to use the start menu think they are instantly experts in every Microsoft product. At least with Linux you had the element of difficulty, but even now that isn't written in stone, which is not a Good Thing™ in my eyes.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff Born and Bred.
point taken. didnt think of it that way:-D ******************** * SteveMcLenithan * steve@steve-mac.com * http://steve-mac.com ********************
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If you use Office XP most of those gripes are nullified... Daniel Ferguson wrote: For instance, I try to set my font to Verdana (which is simple, clean and easy to read) and Office 'helpfully' sets it back to Times New Crap I've never experienced that as far as I can remember since I first used Word 2000, but certainly not in Word 2002 - the formatting task pane gives you great and easy to use/understand control over such things. Daniel Ferguson wrote: Another thing is the 'helpful' autocorrect: it's nice most of the time, but the odd time it changes something I intended and then changes it again when I've gone back and fixed it. Bring on Office XP and Smart Tags - they are your invaluable friend here. One click and you're set for life. =) Daniel Ferguson wrote: Then there's Excel 'helpfully' asking me if I want to save a .dbf (which has not even changed) as an .xls because I'll miss out on some formatting I can't check that but I expect that could still be the case. :s Daniel Ferguson wrote: Which reminds me of that obnoxious 'paste dialog' that the new version of office has. I keep closing it, Office keeps showing it. I think the feature you talk about was present in Office 2000, and assume that is what you are talking about because with Office XP all I had to do was close it when it first appeared and it asked me if I ever wanted to see it again (unless I used the CTRL+C-CTRL+C double copy shortcut). I said no and I haven't seen it since without deliberately brining it up (which I do from time to time as it is very useful for copying multiple sections of one document to another). Daniel Ferguson wrote: The epitome of Office Brand Helpfulness™ is/was clippy. It's so 'helpful' you want to strangle someone I never had a problem with Clippy - with Office 2000 I always had the cat character visible because it was nice to watch it purr when you saved your document and use a typewriter when you print something. It was a little humorous distraction - something to play with. With Office XP I have never seen it unless I was checking grammer advice (it is off by default) - I use the new help box on the menu bar. The personalised menus are a god save but seem to share the same popularity as poor Clippy. :(( Daniel Ferguson wrote: Office is like a backseat driver who tries to grab the steering wheel. Ni
David Wulff wrote: If you use Office XP most of those gripes are nullified... I'm still suspicious, but I'll have a look for those options. Smart tags, for one, sound interesting. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and a control freak, I must admit, so it's easier for me to see the details of what's going on, and have control, rather than be babied. David Wulff wrote: I always had the cat character visible because it was nice to watch it purr when you saved your document and use a typewriter when you print something. I agree here, I enjoyed the little animations. :-D
DWORD dwCaffeine = 0x00c0ffee;
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or Bill is rampaging up and down the halls. IBM buys Rational for 2.1 BILLION $ http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1037872618478[^] :omg: Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian GrausI think IBM bought a consulting firm (PWC) not too long ago, they are really bulking up.
R.Bischoff | email .NET, Kommst du mit?
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The worst two developer products I had to work with are Rational Clear Case and Rational Rose. Real productivity killers. How so? Do you use anything else? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian GrausAbsolutely concur with opinion on ir-rational software. I worked in a shop with clear case, and that friggen tool required 4 fulltime admins just to support that nightmarish tool....gads!!!! I've used PVCS, CVS, SourceSafe and each of these are vastly superior to clear-crap in stability, usability, and ease of administration. That stuff would flake out for literally days at a time and would bring all efforts on this 200+ person project to a complete stand-still...After all, if you can't get to the source, what can you really do? Oh, I know, stop coding and use rose. To be fair I've never had the displeasure of having to drive rose, but I've known some that have and find it to be a frustrating experience because of the way that you have to limit your work-style to the world that ir-rational would have you think in....I've also seen it it crash and burn on importing projects of any significant size. If I hear from any shop that they are using ir-rational software tools, they lose 10 points...period....I for one will never buy tools from that company. I wonder why anyone would ever..... I think IBM has just thrown a pile of money into the burn barrel. Better sell your stock now while it is still worth something Just trying to keep the forces of entropy at bay
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Absolutely. Our secretary set up a word document for offers, that takes an address from the "contacts" database (access) and has an embedded excel sheet where she quickly can select the products the customer might want. It's a mess, e.g. we cannot ever delete recors from the contacts, since the record index must match the primary key for the whole thing to work. But she set it up all alone, it works since years, and never ever one of the "IT guys" had to have a look at it. I'm impressed, and I never get tired to tell this.
If I could find a souvenir / just to prove the world was here [sighist]
>It's a mess, e.g. we cannot ever delete recors from the contacts, since the record index must match the primary key for the whole thing to work. Sounds like another up and coming VB developer to me.
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>It's a mess, e.g. we cannot ever delete recors from the contacts, since the record index must match the primary key for the whole thing to work. Sounds like another up and coming VB developer to me.
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Absolutely concur with opinion on ir-rational software. I worked in a shop with clear case, and that friggen tool required 4 fulltime admins just to support that nightmarish tool....gads!!!! I've used PVCS, CVS, SourceSafe and each of these are vastly superior to clear-crap in stability, usability, and ease of administration. That stuff would flake out for literally days at a time and would bring all efforts on this 200+ person project to a complete stand-still...After all, if you can't get to the source, what can you really do? Oh, I know, stop coding and use rose. To be fair I've never had the displeasure of having to drive rose, but I've known some that have and find it to be a frustrating experience because of the way that you have to limit your work-style to the world that ir-rational would have you think in....I've also seen it it crash and burn on importing projects of any significant size. If I hear from any shop that they are using ir-rational software tools, they lose 10 points...period....I for one will never buy tools from that company. I wonder why anyone would ever..... I think IBM has just thrown a pile of money into the burn barrel. Better sell your stock now while it is still worth something Just trying to keep the forces of entropy at bay
Wow, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say anything positive about these tools. How do they stay in business? I guess they convince upper management that the tools increase productivity, and then claim the worker bees are incompetent when nothing works? Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus -
Absolutely concur with opinion on ir-rational software. I worked in a shop with clear case, and that friggen tool required 4 fulltime admins just to support that nightmarish tool....gads!!!! I've used PVCS, CVS, SourceSafe and each of these are vastly superior to clear-crap in stability, usability, and ease of administration. That stuff would flake out for literally days at a time and would bring all efforts on this 200+ person project to a complete stand-still...After all, if you can't get to the source, what can you really do? Oh, I know, stop coding and use rose. To be fair I've never had the displeasure of having to drive rose, but I've known some that have and find it to be a frustrating experience because of the way that you have to limit your work-style to the world that ir-rational would have you think in....I've also seen it it crash and burn on importing projects of any significant size. If I hear from any shop that they are using ir-rational software tools, they lose 10 points...period....I for one will never buy tools from that company. I wonder why anyone would ever..... I think IBM has just thrown a pile of money into the burn barrel. Better sell your stock now while it is still worth something Just trying to keep the forces of entropy at bay
RedZenBird wrote: I've used PVCS, CVS, SourceSafe and each of these are vastly superior to clear-crap in stability, usability, and ease of administration Interesting... After the 5th time our Source Safe DB has been corrupted in the same number of months I have to disagree. Also the three you mentioned don't make life too easy when you have multiple parallel versions to support. I've worked at a couple of companies that started out on Source Safe and CVS but ended up moving to another product as these ran out of steam... The only thing SS and CVS they have going for them are speed and simplicity. The only problem with Rational is the cost of the software and consultancy. We last hired a Clear Case consultant from Rational to help with some configuration at £2000 a day... But I guess that makes good business sense for IBM :) James.