The continuing hell of continuous meetings
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
A Camel is a horse designed by a committee. A small committee at that.
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Oh boy I'm glad I don't work for that company. I think it's time for the axe to start swinging and create some layoffs.
Software Kinetics - The home of good software
Call centre init! You pay peanuts and make them do jobs the monkey's refused to accept what would you expect. The greatest problem with software design is trying to catch all the stupid things users can do. There comes a point however where you just have to say if they enter the wrong data there is nothing we can do about it. A couple of years ago I created a fairly simple web app that had the facility to upload an excel spreadsheet with a list of customers and addresses. The format of the spreadsheet was defined by the business. A change request came through because the users kept using a different spreadsheet format. The same system allows the user to select a number of drop downs, check boxes, maybe not even ten, and then hit save. I have had to put in a dialogue that pops up and tells them what they have entered on the screen and asking them if it is right before saving. To my mind when you need that sort of thing you shouldn't have the job. I did ask why they just didn't beat those who do things wrong today. Apparently HR won't let them. I'm waiting for the call to come in that it is too dark for them to do any work because the system didn't turn the lights on for them in the morning.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Call centre init! You pay peanuts and make them do jobs the monkey's refused to accept what would you expect. The greatest problem with software design is trying to catch all the stupid things users can do. There comes a point however where you just have to say if they enter the wrong data there is nothing we can do about it. A couple of years ago I created a fairly simple web app that had the facility to upload an excel spreadsheet with a list of customers and addresses. The format of the spreadsheet was defined by the business. A change request came through because the users kept using a different spreadsheet format. The same system allows the user to select a number of drop downs, check boxes, maybe not even ten, and then hit save. I have had to put in a dialogue that pops up and tells them what they have entered on the screen and asking them if it is right before saving. To my mind when you need that sort of thing you shouldn't have the job. I did ask why they just didn't beat those who do things wrong today. Apparently HR won't let them. I'm waiting for the call to come in that it is too dark for them to do any work because the system didn't turn the lights on for them in the morning.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
The greatest problem with software design is trying to catch all the stupid things users can do.
Tell me, we write the software the way we expect it to work. We never diviate off the path. Once a user gets their hands on the software, well that's when the bugs being to manifest the software.
Software Kinetics - The home of good software
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Why not bring a laptop into the meeting and just continue programming? I do that all the time, works great.
Wout
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
"Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?" Yes, resoundingly. Never expect the users full attention. It's early in the morning, the coffee machine is broken, there's construction work across the street, the cubiclist left of you has Best of Roxette - the early years blaring on her half-open headphones, and it's the twentyfuggingseventymillionth entry you make. A crib sheet is a silly kludge, a reaosnable design would use start and end time. Giving a time to a customer and appearing half an hour earlier is asking for trouble. Or... interesting experiences, at least.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Oh boy I'm glad I don't work for that company. I think it's time for the axe to start swinging and create some layoffs.
Software Kinetics - The home of good software
Norm .net wrote:
it's time for the axe to start swinging
If only, it's generally the axe swingers that are the one's who are the problem. ;)
It was broke, so I fixed it.
modified on Friday, April 8, 2011 9:16 AM
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A Camel is a horse designed by a committee. A small committee at that.
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
Yeah, the large committee was too busy working on the Platypus.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
"Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?" Yes, resoundingly. Never expect the users full attention. It's early in the morning, the coffee machine is broken, there's construction work across the street, the cubiclist left of you has Best of Roxette - the early years blaring on her half-open headphones, and it's the twentyfuggingseventymillionth entry you make. A crib sheet is a silly kludge, a reaosnable design would use start and end time. Giving a time to a customer and appearing half an hour earlier is asking for trouble. Or... interesting experiences, at least.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchypeterchen wrote:
A crib sheet is a silly kludge, a reaosnable design would use start and end time. Giving a time to a customer and appearing half an hour earlier is asking for trouble. Or... interesting experiences, at least.
It is actually the result of a regulatory requirement. The company this is for being very heavily regulated by the government in terms of practice and especially making payments to customers for doing something wrong - which is what this relates to.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Norm .net wrote:
it's time for the axe to start swinging
If only, it's generally the axe swingers that are the one's who are the problem. ;)
It was broke, so I fixed it.
modified on Friday, April 8, 2011 9:16 AM
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Yes I can relate to that. I used to spent great part of the day listening to my boss, who always monopolized the meetings. We just sat around waiting, waiting and listening him saying the same things again and again. And most of the time the topics had already been dealt with in previous meetings. At the time, we knew most meetings were called just because someone wanted constant attention :)
Take a look at Snail Quest here in The Code Project.
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peterchen wrote:
A crib sheet is a silly kludge, a reaosnable design would use start and end time. Giving a time to a customer and appearing half an hour earlier is asking for trouble. Or... interesting experiences, at least.
It is actually the result of a regulatory requirement. The company this is for being very heavily regulated by the government in terms of practice and especially making payments to customers for doing something wrong - which is what this relates to.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
In this case I'd add the time range to the drop down, or display it somehwere. UNless that's prohibited, too :)
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
A Camel is a horse designed by a committee. A small committee at that.
"People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them." Eric Hoffer "The failure mode of 'clever' is 'asshole'" John Scalzi
Hi Rob, Well, on behalf of Camels everywhere, let me add that Bactrian camels, packed with 85kg. loads (187 pounds), over a thousand years ago, on the "Silk Route," could go for three days without water as they crossed the totally arid Taklamakhan desert (of course the caravansarais travelled by night). If a committee designed the Bactrian Camel, I'd buy their software. best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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In this case I'd add the time range to the drop down, or display it somehwere. UNless that's prohibited, too :)
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchyThat was my first thought. Or if they choose a time have two boxes then fill in with the soonest time and another with the latest time. I also agree that while it sounds redundant you need to attempt to code for stupid once in awhile :-D
------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.
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Hi Rob, Well, on behalf of Camels everywhere, let me add that Bactrian camels, packed with 85kg. loads (187 pounds), over a thousand years ago, on the "Silk Route," could go for three days without water as they crossed the totally arid Taklamakhan desert (of course the caravansarais travelled by night). If a committee designed the Bactrian Camel, I'd buy their software. best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
BillWoodruff wrote:
If a committee designed the Bactrian Camel, I'd buy their software.
If the committee that designed the Bactrian Camel designed software, the app would take an hour too boot, have buttons larger than the forms they sit on, balk at commands, stink to high heaven and frequently spit. In short, you would have one of the newer versions of MS-Word.
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ChrisElston wrote:
The greatest problem with software design is trying to catch all the stupid things users can do.
Tell me, we write the software the way we expect it to work. We never diviate off the path. Once a user gets their hands on the software, well that's when the bugs being to manifest the software.
Software Kinetics - The home of good software
Really too true ...
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. Well - just try to be in the situation of the WOman in the help desk; they should concentrate about the customer, and not on (even simple) math .. . And better than a sheet would be some additional field in the app that tell the user the times before and after, so he could read them right from the screen
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I seem to be spending all my time in meetings these days, two Monday, two Tuesday, just a quickie yesterday, and three hours of hell this morning. Some of you may remember this[^]. I now yearn for meetings like that. There were nearly 20 people in this meeting, apart from myself and another technical woman who was leading the demonstration of some new software, and the bloke in charge of the project, the rest were supervisors and managers of the end users of the system, all but two were female. The levels of stupidity were astounding. Part of the system requires that an hour time slot is given to a customer on the phone by a user selecting a time from a drop down of 15 minute intervals (8.00, 8.15, 8.30, etc). It needs to be made clear to the customer that the time given means an agent will call at their house for up to half an hour either side of that time. Someone said "we will need to create a crib sheet for the users with each time they can choose and the corresponding time half an hour before and after it". I tried to let it go, it was nothing to do with me. "Do they really need a sheet to tell them what half an hour after 8.15 is?". "Yes" came the resounding reply. "But. But. That's called 'telling the time'. They cannot do that themselves they shouldn't have a job, they should be at school with my 5 year old. So she can explain how time works to them." Another woman asked a question that was totally out of scope of not only the meeting, but also the system we were talking about. I replied that we had a meeting scheduled next week for that. She asked the same damn question 4 more times. Each time I gave the exact answer, word for word. And on and on and on it went. I've been outside to scream at the canal.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Sounds like a typical week for me...I refuse to bring paper and pencil to any meeting as it’s just a flat waste of my time. The users here change their minds so often it might take 20 revisions to get them something they will stop whining about. X|
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
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peterchen wrote:
A crib sheet is a silly kludge, a reaosnable design would use start and end time. Giving a time to a customer and appearing half an hour earlier is asking for trouble. Or... interesting experiences, at least.
It is actually the result of a regulatory requirement. The company this is for being very heavily regulated by the government in terms of practice and especially making payments to customers for doing something wrong - which is what this relates to.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
I'm in the same situation meeting wise. . . but I do have a suggestion for your crib sheet issue. Why not have the system display the time 1/2 hour either side of the selected time. The user selects 13:15 and the screen displays "you will be called between 12:45pm and 01:45pm" (mixing 12 and 24 hour clocks as another form of idiot safeguard) - then the user can just recite what's on screen to the caller.
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Sounds like a typical week for me...I refuse to bring paper and pencil to any meeting as it’s just a flat waste of my time. The users here change their minds so often it might take 20 revisions to get them something they will stop whining about. X|
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
I had a great one like that recently. Spec: the IsPrepayment field should take a constant value of 'Yes' Me: Done Analysts: We got an error when uploading. The IsPrepayment field should be blank. Me: No worries, I'll change the default to blank - though that's different to the spec; are you sure you want me to go ahead? Analysts: Yes, set IsPrepayment to blank. Me: Done Analysts: We got an error when uploading. The IsPrepayment field is blank. Did you deploy the change? Me: Yes - as the error points out, the prepayment field is now blank, which is what you asked for (see mail thread). Analysts: Please can you set it to "No"? Me: But it is a prepayment, and originally the spec said it should be Yes, which made sense. Are you sure you want it to be set to No, that seems illogical and will cause confusion to anyone trying to support this. Analysts: Yes, it's OK, the system doesn't actually use that field, we just need to provide it to get the upload to work. Me: In that case, should we remove that field from both systems - there's no point sending something which isn't being used (and also no point having validation on it if we keep it). Analysts: We may need it in future; please default to 'No'. Me: Done (sigh) Analysts: it works!