Why is it that we don't have a FairTax in the USA? Would it work in other countries too?
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We are paying over $4 a gallon for gas here. More in some areas of the country. We drive a lot here and public transportation outside of the big cities is not good. Go hybrid..go green.
Well tha's more than 1/3 cheaper than here. With a quick calculation I got 6.30 € per gallon, assuming current prices. But my little car is no hybrid and Diesel is cheaper.
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011 -
Really bad idea. It adversely affects the less well off, who would then be paying more tax as a percentage of income. What is needed is a universal rate system. 10% of all income is taxed, 10% on Purchases, 10% on Corporation tax etc. A complex and unweildy tax system is used to control and monitor people, it is a form of economic slavery. Left Wing governments love it because it allows for more intrusion into the lives of its citizens. Simpler Tax systems are easier to enforce, and, generally, raise more money for the state, and allow more money to be kept for the workers. (This is because there is less red tape and bureaucracy involved in calculation, and the same with collection.) Also, whilst I am on the subject... Incremental rate hikes for higher earners make no sense... Taking ever larger %'s from the high earners may seem like a good idea for the socialists/trotskyites, but it acts as a disenfranchisement. "The harder I work, the less I am rewarded" is not going to encourage people to work. And the higher earners are the ones we need working. The lower earners are given the tax breaks, and yet are less productive for the country. We need the higher earners to be encouraged, for then they create markets and jobs which is better for all.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
Left Wing governments love it because it allows for more intrusion into the lives of its citizens.
Right-wing governments love it because it allows them to cut one tax while raising others by twice as much, and still claim to have cut taxes.
Dalek Dave wrote:
"The harder I work, the less I am rewarded" is not going to encourage people to work.
Bollocks. The more you earn, the more you are rewarded. If you make three million, you still take home a cr@pload more than us poor suckers who only make two million. I'd be happy to take home an extra five-hundred-odd thousand for every million that's added to my gross (more than five-hundred-odd in the UK; taxes here are higher). The top rate is the same for every penny earned by anyone who goes over the threshold, but the right wing always tries to make it look as if earning more money means that you start paying more than 100% in tax, and actually become poorer if you make more. The fact is that if you take two extra percent away from someone earning 20,000 a year, it hits them a lot harder than someone losing half a percent of his fifth million. Let's not forget how many hard-working people were dropped below the official poverty line during the thatcher years -- but that was OK, because her rich pals all got a load of extra money for nothing, didn't they? And the poor ****ers lower down the scale are the ones who are forced to work hardest and are treated worst by their employers, so don't give me that "all my hard work" cr@p.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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T1000_ wrote:
I dont get it, why dont people and nations simplify stuff
because, politicians use the tax code to reward their supporters. this "fair tax" system would, in no time at all, be littered with the same kinds of loopholes and giveaways that make our current system so complex. it's just the nature of politics.
what maxx_ was suggesting is simply fair and simple. Tax any income at a flat 20% or 15% or whatever after a certain threshold. Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes. If you have simple laws people will stop finding loop holes to evade taxes. It is humans (people) who made politics a profession. May be you have to start some uprising or revolutions like they did in Eqypt.
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Dalek Dave wrote:
Simpler Tax systems are easier to enforce, and, generally, raise more money for the state, and allow more money to be kept for the workers.
(This is because there is less red tape and bureaucracy involved in calculation, and the same with collection.)And accountants would be out of a job. No downsides then!
They'd still spend half of the year counting themoney, then the other half figuring out how much 10% of that would be.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
what maxx_ was suggesting is simply fair and simple. Tax any income at a flat 20% or 15% or whatever after a certain threshold. Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes. If you have simple laws people will stop finding loop holes to evade taxes. It is humans (people) who made politics a profession. May be you have to start some uprising or revolutions like they did in Eqypt.
T1000_ wrote:
Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes.
the "simplicity" is irrelevant: people do not care about the algorithmic beauty of the tax code. and, loopholes will always happen - it's how politicians reward their benefactors.
T1000_ wrote:
If you have simple laws people will stop finding loop holes to evade taxes
this is sheer fantasy. people will always seek to spend less money, and nobody cares how complex the law is, when deciding to comply or not (see speed limit laws, for example - nothing could be simpler than "do not go faster than X", and yet there is probably no law that is broken more often)
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T1000_ wrote:
Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes.
the "simplicity" is irrelevant: people do not care about the algorithmic beauty of the tax code. and, loopholes will always happen - it's how politicians reward their benefactors.
T1000_ wrote:
If you have simple laws people will stop finding loop holes to evade taxes
this is sheer fantasy. people will always seek to spend less money, and nobody cares how complex the law is, when deciding to comply or not (see speed limit laws, for example - nothing could be simpler than "do not go faster than X", and yet there is probably no law that is broken more often)
Counter argument using English as a language is easy. There has to be an argument to the point and not an abstract statement like "this is sheer fantasy. people will always seek to spend less money.". If there is a strict and fair rule that - you have to pay flat 15% on any income above 75000$, there is obviously less room for fraud. An individuals bank account is always available for a probe.
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But the higher earners are, generally, better educated and more business savvy. These are the entrepreneurs who create wealth. Joe Blow who works in a shop or a factory does his job, and get's his pay, but doesn't create the market, yet, perversely, gets the tax breaks.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
But the higher earners are, generally, better educated and more business savvy
If we're talking generalisations, it's a fairly well known "fact" that as someone climbs the income scale, regardless of income tax levels, the proportion of income spent on tax decreases.....more money == better accountants == more "creative" tax returns.
C# has already designed away most of the tedium of C++.
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Counter argument using English as a language is easy. There has to be an argument to the point and not an abstract statement like "this is sheer fantasy. people will always seek to spend less money.". If there is a strict and fair rule that - you have to pay flat 15% on any income above 75000$, there is obviously less room for fraud. An individuals bank account is always available for a probe.
T1000_ wrote:
. There has to be an argument to the point and not an abstract statement like
:omg: are you serious ? you write "Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes" and then complain that my argument is abstract ? seriously ?
T1000_ wrote:
If there is a strict and fair rule that - you have to pay flat 15% on any income above 75000$, there is obviously less room for fraud.
but that's not the "Fair Tax" scheme.
T1000_ wrote:
An individuals bank account is always available for a probe.
not if that account is in a bank in a country that doesn't allow governments to look at private bank accounts.
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Counter argument using English as a language is easy. There has to be an argument to the point and not an abstract statement like "this is sheer fantasy. people will always seek to spend less money.". If there is a strict and fair rule that - you have to pay flat 15% on any income above 75000$, there is obviously less room for fraud. An individuals bank account is always available for a probe.
And all that gold, silver and gems I have hidden under my bed do not show up in any bank account. So when I want to evade taxes, please give me the money in a briefcase on a dark parking lot.
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011 -
T1000_ wrote:
. There has to be an argument to the point and not an abstract statement like
:omg: are you serious ? you write "Simplicity doesn't give in room for loop holes" and then complain that my argument is abstract ? seriously ?
T1000_ wrote:
If there is a strict and fair rule that - you have to pay flat 15% on any income above 75000$, there is obviously less room for fraud.
but that's not the "Fair Tax" scheme.
T1000_ wrote:
An individuals bank account is always available for a probe.
not if that account is in a bank in a country that doesn't allow governments to look at private bank accounts.
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And all that gold, silver and gems I have hidden under my bed do not show up in any bank account. So when I want to evade taxes, please give me the money in a briefcase on a dark parking lot.
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011Now there are 2 points here.If gold and gems are your asset, ie you bought them with your earned money - then this money is already taxed.If you inherited it from some one - then it's not taxed. If you stole from some where you'll get caught if you try and encash it, because when u encash it, you might have to show proof of recipt how you got it.
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Now there are 2 points here.If gold and gems are your asset, ie you bought them with your earned money - then this money is already taxed.If you inherited it from some one - then it's not taxed. If you stole from some where you'll get caught if you try and encash it, because when u encash it, you might have to show proof of recipt how you got it.
Did I really buy them with my earned money? I could also use 'black' money given to me in the briefcase on the parking lot. The point is, that people will come up with some craetive ways to get 'black' money that does not show up on their accounts and never gets taxed. Our government is grimly determined to tax all income, including interest on whatever you have. And that's why carrying a briefcase full of money over some borders is considered a severe crime here.
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011 -
Dalek Dave wrote:
Left Wing governments love it because it allows for more intrusion into the lives of its citizens.
Right-wing governments love it because it allows them to cut one tax while raising others by twice as much, and still claim to have cut taxes.
Dalek Dave wrote:
"The harder I work, the less I am rewarded" is not going to encourage people to work.
Bollocks. The more you earn, the more you are rewarded. If you make three million, you still take home a cr@pload more than us poor suckers who only make two million. I'd be happy to take home an extra five-hundred-odd thousand for every million that's added to my gross (more than five-hundred-odd in the UK; taxes here are higher). The top rate is the same for every penny earned by anyone who goes over the threshold, but the right wing always tries to make it look as if earning more money means that you start paying more than 100% in tax, and actually become poorer if you make more. The fact is that if you take two extra percent away from someone earning 20,000 a year, it hits them a lot harder than someone losing half a percent of his fifth million. Let's not forget how many hard-working people were dropped below the official poverty line during the thatcher years -- but that was OK, because her rich pals all got a load of extra money for nothing, didn't they? And the poor ****ers lower down the scale are the ones who are forced to work hardest and are treated worst by their employers, so don't give me that "all my hard work" cr@p.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Someone earns an extra £100 a year and gets to keep all of it. I earn an extra £100, I get to keep £48 of it. Hardly fair, considering how much tax I am already paying. If there is to be fairness, then tax all at the same level.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Did I really buy them with my earned money? I could also use 'black' money given to me in the briefcase on the parking lot. The point is, that people will come up with some craetive ways to get 'black' money that does not show up on their accounts and never gets taxed. Our government is grimly determined to tax all income, including interest on whatever you have. And that's why carrying a briefcase full of money over some borders is considered a severe crime here.
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011When you talk of Black Money -it is money that has not been accounted for, by banks or other financial institutions.So the only thing you can do with the black money is either keep it at your home or spend it. If you spend it on a property or high end automobile - your bank accounts are going to be checked for your proportionate income, and these days paying for items by cash etc has been vastly reduced.You have to pay off cars and property by cheques or direct debit. another point is tax colllected at source. Unless you are a small shop - most employees would have their taxes deducted at source by the employer. Small shops which deal with cash etc cannot generate a very significant amount of black money. btw today most amount of black money is generate by manipulation of account - by finding loop holes in tax codes.
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Not sure how many of you in the USA are familiar with the FairTax movement. Since this is tax day here in the US I thought I would post and bring it to your attention. Especially since many of you are ISV and programmers working for yourselves. The FairTax would mean the elimination of all forms of income tax, including payroll taxes and medicare and Social Security tax. It would be replaced by a consumption tax on new items that are purchased. The only problem I have with this is that food and medicine would be taxed. A prebate would exist for those who earn less than X amount of dollars so they are not burdened with the tax. In my mind it seems to make sense since I can control what I purchase. I don't have to have that expensive new 52 inch tv. I do expect manufacturers to get around the tax by offering discounts on the merchandise, so that the items will still be affordable. That means prices in general will go down unless raw materials go up...ie oil goes up. How many of you know about the FairTax and if you are not in the USA would you think it would work in your own countries.?
Notice how they do not use the word flat tax? In the "Fair Tax" movement; the ability of all levels of government to tax is not otherwise curbed and IRS still issues refunds based on your level of wealth. The biggest laugh of the whole thing is that instead of making a tiered taxing system wherein different goods are taxed differently, they want to issue a refund to every one every year! You would still have property taxes, you would still have gas tax, you would still have all excise taxes, tariffs, fees, etc and still have your State's income tax. Also, the 16th amendment would not be repealed so in a few years after the "Fair Tax" is passed some party would get the brilliant idea to levy an income tax on the wealthy. For those unfamiliar, the Fair Tax is a proposed national sales tax in the U.S.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Not sure how many of you in the USA are familiar with the FairTax movement. Since this is tax day here in the US I thought I would post and bring it to your attention. Especially since many of you are ISV and programmers working for yourselves. The FairTax would mean the elimination of all forms of income tax, including payroll taxes and medicare and Social Security tax. It would be replaced by a consumption tax on new items that are purchased. The only problem I have with this is that food and medicine would be taxed. A prebate would exist for those who earn less than X amount of dollars so they are not burdened with the tax. In my mind it seems to make sense since I can control what I purchase. I don't have to have that expensive new 52 inch tv. I do expect manufacturers to get around the tax by offering discounts on the merchandise, so that the items will still be affordable. That means prices in general will go down unless raw materials go up...ie oil goes up. How many of you know about the FairTax and if you are not in the USA would you think it would work in your own countries.?
Its been discussed a lot and has a lot of benefits. Being a sales tax, or VAT (TVA), it is unavoidable, and can be levied at different rates given the articles luxuray value. So basic foods and clothing would be tax exempt, speedboats, big cars and the such, would probably be at 50% or more. Of course the tx is entirely voluntary, live simply, dont pay tax, elinates vast amounts of government and civil service, thus reducing the cost of government, and is unavoidable, since its paid on purchase. Its got a lot going for it.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
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Whehe, a nice scam :cool: Moving taxes from the income part to the consumption part would mean a big increase in taxes for those who spend most of their income on basic stuff like food, clothing, housing, and it would be a huge tax-break for the rich.
mindserve wrote:
if you are not in the USA would you think it would work in your own countries.?
It wouldn't work, has been tried in the past with this[^] result.
I are Troll :suss:
In the UK basic products are VAT (sales tax, purchase tax) exempt. There is no reason a poor person need pay more under this scheme, and its not a break for the rich either. You pay when you buy luxury goods, period. Dont buy, dont pay. (And luxury and rates neeed to be defined in order to raise enough income to run the country).
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
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Not sure how many of you in the USA are familiar with the FairTax movement. Since this is tax day here in the US I thought I would post and bring it to your attention. Especially since many of you are ISV and programmers working for yourselves. The FairTax would mean the elimination of all forms of income tax, including payroll taxes and medicare and Social Security tax. It would be replaced by a consumption tax on new items that are purchased. The only problem I have with this is that food and medicine would be taxed. A prebate would exist for those who earn less than X amount of dollars so they are not burdened with the tax. In my mind it seems to make sense since I can control what I purchase. I don't have to have that expensive new 52 inch tv. I do expect manufacturers to get around the tax by offering discounts on the merchandise, so that the items will still be affordable. That means prices in general will go down unless raw materials go up...ie oil goes up. How many of you know about the FairTax and if you are not in the USA would you think it would work in your own countries.?
I have a lot I could say about the whole tax thing but ask yourself this... Would you rather pay a flat amount (say 10%) of your income (corporations would pay on their income too...not net profit) to the government and then know that you can do whatever you want with the other 90% and when you go to the store, you pay what the price tag is and no more, or live in a world of mass confusion not knowing the exact amount you'll spend at the register, get in your paycheck or if you'll get a 'refund' or have to pay on tax day? You'll also know how much your bonus is! Creative Accounting[^] was invented because people try to get away with so much because they are sick of paying a government that can't even do their own taxes and budget and are confused by their own rules and regulations. If it wasn't for computers, taxes would be a pure Hell! It doesn't matter what form of taxes you have. There will ALWAYS be people who will do whatever they can to evade paying it. I agree that what I work for, I should keep. If that is so, then I should be out there paving the roads I drive on. I should be policing the other drivers. I should be going to court and putting criminals in jail. I should be communicating with other countries and working out safe border tactics. These are things the taxes pay for. If you don't have a clue how to swing a hammer and need your house fixed, you call someone and pay them to do it for you. We can't pay the paving company directly, police every driver, judge every criminal, protect every border and do all of these all day every day...that's what we have government for. Every one wants a free ride. I do too. But life would not be fun if it was. Too many selfish people in this world...
If you know what I mean...and I think you do...
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Notice how they do not use the word flat tax? In the "Fair Tax" movement; the ability of all levels of government to tax is not otherwise curbed and IRS still issues refunds based on your level of wealth. The biggest laugh of the whole thing is that instead of making a tiered taxing system wherein different goods are taxed differently, they want to issue a refund to every one every year! You would still have property taxes, you would still have gas tax, you would still have all excise taxes, tariffs, fees, etc and still have your State's income tax. Also, the 16th amendment would not be repealed so in a few years after the "Fair Tax" is passed some party would get the brilliant idea to levy an income tax on the wealthy. For those unfamiliar, the Fair Tax is a proposed national sales tax in the U.S.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Tiered system? That's not a flat tax if it's Tiered. The prebate just gives a break for those who are at poverty level. Poor people don't buy much anyway do they? Property taxes are set by the county not at federal level and never have been. The IRS will be gone so they won't be issuing any refunds at all. Of course you still have a gas tax and if you live in a state with income tax you do pay that. That won't go away. What will go away is payroll taxes and income taxes. You only pay when you buy something "new" not used. The fair tax is the best way to go imo and the 16th amendment would be repealed..it's a matter of attrition. This will give the people who work for the IRS enough time to move over to other sectors of the government or private sector.
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so, you're talking about something like a 30% sales tax? yeah, right. nobody would pay it. fraud would be widespread.
Chris Losinger wrote:
nobody would pay it. fraud would be widespread.
I'd rather it was fraud that was widespread, rarher than our buttcheeks as under the current system.
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