Why is it that we don't have a FairTax in the USA? Would it work in other countries too?
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so, you're talking about something like a 30% sales tax? yeah, right. nobody would pay it. fraud would be widespread.
Chris Losinger wrote:
nobody would pay it. fraud would be widespread.
I'd rather it was fraud that was widespread, rarher than our buttcheeks as under the current system.
There is water at the bottom of the ocean. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
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In the UK basic products are VAT (sales tax, purchase tax) exempt. There is no reason a poor person need pay more under this scheme, and its not a break for the rich either. You pay when you buy luxury goods, period. Dont buy, dont pay. (And luxury and rates neeed to be defined in order to raise enough income to run the country).
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
There is no reason a poor person need pay more under this scheme
Of course there's no "reason" :)
fat_boy wrote:
and its not a break for the rich either.
It is; the poor would pay taxes on everything they earn (since every income goes to living) where the rich only pay taxes on what they spend (and no longer on the income that's being stocked). It's a way of moving the taxes from the rich to the poor.
fat_boy wrote:
You pay when you buy luxury goods, period. Dont buy, dont pay.
We had a proposal last week (from the government) that *all* items would get the same high luxury-tax - including food. And yes, I expect that the UK will get the same proposal within a few years.
I are Troll :suss:
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Tiered system? That's not a flat tax if it's Tiered. The prebate just gives a break for those who are at poverty level. Poor people don't buy much anyway do they? Property taxes are set by the county not at federal level and never have been. The IRS will be gone so they won't be issuing any refunds at all. Of course you still have a gas tax and if you live in a state with income tax you do pay that. That won't go away. What will go away is payroll taxes and income taxes. You only pay when you buy something "new" not used. The fair tax is the best way to go imo and the 16th amendment would be repealed..it's a matter of attrition. This will give the people who work for the IRS enough time to move over to other sectors of the government or private sector.
In Florida our sales tax is tiered based on the type of good being purchases. Ie, food-stuffs have significantly less tax that other items. But it isn't carried to far. Mostly just a difference between Food, Prepared Food, and Other. However, such a tiered system could allow the impoverished a welcome tax break since necessary food items could go un-taxed (fair for all that eat) whereas other items could carry different tax rates. I did not mean to suggest tiered based on income. Such a tiering proposal would eliminate the proviso in the "Fair-Tax" plan of issue refunds every year. The IRS, will still be there, Read the fair tax book, I have. Also, notice, in the very book outlining the complete proposal, the payroll tax does not go away, it is suggested to go away. The law will stay on the books that allows it. Again, I am merely speaking from the book I read from whatever senator it was that proposed it. I don't usually read such things but it was shoved under my nose. The problem is most individuals, associate fair tax with flat tax which are two different proposals. The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Chris Losinger wrote:
nobody would pay it. fraud would be widespread.
I'd rather it was fraud that was widespread, rarher than our buttcheeks as under the current system.
There is water at the bottom of the ocean. My Mu[sic] My Films My Windows Programs, etc.
i'm 100% sure complaints about taxes would not stop, regardless of the which (non-null) tax system we use. and, "Fair/Free/MagicUnicorn Tax" proponents always tout increased compliance as a benefit of their proposed system. i don't believe them.
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fat_boy wrote:
There is no reason a poor person need pay more under this scheme
Of course there's no "reason" :)
fat_boy wrote:
and its not a break for the rich either.
It is; the poor would pay taxes on everything they earn (since every income goes to living) where the rich only pay taxes on what they spend (and no longer on the income that's being stocked). It's a way of moving the taxes from the rich to the poor.
fat_boy wrote:
You pay when you buy luxury goods, period. Dont buy, dont pay.
We had a proposal last week (from the government) that *all* items would get the same high luxury-tax - including food. And yes, I expect that the UK will get the same proposal within a few years.
I are Troll :suss:
Dont forget some products are alreay VAT exempt because they are basics. All that needs to be done to keep the tax fair ist to set the goods that are exempt at a reasonable level. Basic food stufs, medcines, hygene products and so on. And dont forget the so called 'poor' in the western world live like lords compared to the poor in the undeveloped part of the world. The idea of poor and ric is relative and doesnt imply privation in the west so even today the 'poor' are quite happy to spend money on luxury good such as expensive cars, TVs. DVDs., videos, cigarettes, drink, holidays, etc etc etc. The rich wont be let off either sicne the products they buy, big cars, boats, big houses, eating out and so on are going to get a big increase in price. However, because of the self collecting nature of the tax there will be no more tax evasion. And due to the simplicity the cost of government is massively reduced, thus meaning LESS tac needs collecting. And MORE people can work productively in the economy. Its a good system, do the maths, set the figures as required and everyones happy.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
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In the UK basic products are VAT (sales tax, purchase tax) exempt. There is no reason a poor person need pay more under this scheme, and its not a break for the rich either. You pay when you buy luxury goods, period. Dont buy, dont pay. (And luxury and rates neeed to be defined in order to raise enough income to run the country).
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
In the UK basic products are VAT (sales tax, purchase tax) exempt.
All those exemptions do is to shift the peak tax burden to the middle class. The super rich who're able to save a much larger fraction of their income than most people at our level still would end up paying less.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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In Florida our sales tax is tiered based on the type of good being purchases. Ie, food-stuffs have significantly less tax that other items. But it isn't carried to far. Mostly just a difference between Food, Prepared Food, and Other. However, such a tiered system could allow the impoverished a welcome tax break since necessary food items could go un-taxed (fair for all that eat) whereas other items could carry different tax rates. I did not mean to suggest tiered based on income. Such a tiering proposal would eliminate the proviso in the "Fair-Tax" plan of issue refunds every year. The IRS, will still be there, Read the fair tax book, I have. Also, notice, in the very book outlining the complete proposal, the payroll tax does not go away, it is suggested to go away. The law will stay on the books that allows it. Again, I am merely speaking from the book I read from whatever senator it was that proposed it. I don't usually read such things but it was shoved under my nose. The problem is most individuals, associate fair tax with flat tax which are two different proposals. The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
The IRS will not disappear entirely..some by attrition. For every 3 that retire, 1 new person would be hired. There would not be any payroll taxes at all so not sure what book you read. If there are no income taxes then how could they have a payroll tax at all? What would they be taxing? IMO the Fair Tax is gaining support everywhere and I believe it will be the best way to fix our national debt. Right now they say about 50% of americans don't pay any taxes at all. I am still not sure how that's possible but those are the numbers out there. So the burden now falls on %50 percent of the people in the US to fund all of the entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare, medicaid. How does that sound right to anyone? Maybe it sounds good on paper, but then so did communism.
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I have a lot I could say about the whole tax thing but ask yourself this... Would you rather pay a flat amount (say 10%) of your income (corporations would pay on their income too...not net profit) to the government and then know that you can do whatever you want with the other 90% and when you go to the store, you pay what the price tag is and no more, or live in a world of mass confusion not knowing the exact amount you'll spend at the register, get in your paycheck or if you'll get a 'refund' or have to pay on tax day? You'll also know how much your bonus is! Creative Accounting[^] was invented because people try to get away with so much because they are sick of paying a government that can't even do their own taxes and budget and are confused by their own rules and regulations. If it wasn't for computers, taxes would be a pure Hell! It doesn't matter what form of taxes you have. There will ALWAYS be people who will do whatever they can to evade paying it. I agree that what I work for, I should keep. If that is so, then I should be out there paving the roads I drive on. I should be policing the other drivers. I should be going to court and putting criminals in jail. I should be communicating with other countries and working out safe border tactics. These are things the taxes pay for. If you don't have a clue how to swing a hammer and need your house fixed, you call someone and pay them to do it for you. We can't pay the paving company directly, police every driver, judge every criminal, protect every border and do all of these all day every day...that's what we have government for. Every one wants a free ride. I do too. But life would not be fun if it was. Too many selfish people in this world...
If you know what I mean...and I think you do...
You do pave the roads you drive on..with your dollars you do pay for that. People do try to get around the system, but it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing. I am not sure why I have to foot the bill for the other 50% that are not paying taxes at all. Earned Income Credit...so if you just make babies and more babies until your eggs run out the government will help you with that. How about you don't have any kids or just have one that you can afford and don't expect the government to help out. Be responsible and learn to pay your own way..that is my motto in life. I don't take, I don't expect and I pay in to the system. Why is that so hard for some people?
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The IRS will not disappear entirely..some by attrition. For every 3 that retire, 1 new person would be hired. There would not be any payroll taxes at all so not sure what book you read. If there are no income taxes then how could they have a payroll tax at all? What would they be taxing? IMO the Fair Tax is gaining support everywhere and I believe it will be the best way to fix our national debt. Right now they say about 50% of americans don't pay any taxes at all. I am still not sure how that's possible but those are the numbers out there. So the burden now falls on %50 percent of the people in the US to fund all of the entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare, medicaid. How does that sound right to anyone? Maybe it sounds good on paper, but then so did communism.
http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Neal-Boortz/dp/0060875410[^] And I stand corrected, Congressman John Linder not Senator. Read the book, it is the proposal. Everything else is filtered by other peoples opinions.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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fat_boy wrote:
In the UK basic products are VAT (sales tax, purchase tax) exempt.
All those exemptions do is to shift the peak tax burden to the middle class. The super rich who're able to save a much larger fraction of their income than most people at our level still would end up paying less.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
Dan Neely wrote:
The super rich who're able to save a much larger fraction of their income than most people at our level still would end up paying less.
But HWY do people save money? Its to have the security of spending in the future. Eventually this money will come into the system as goods purchases, whereupon it gets taxed. The government taxes money when it changes hands. Thus income tax, CGT, inheritance, VAT etc etc etc, as well as various other taxes for services such as local council tax, road tax etc. It doesnt matter whether you tax money at earning or spending, you will tax it because it will be spent.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
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You do pave the roads you drive on..with your dollars you do pay for that. People do try to get around the system, but it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing. I am not sure why I have to foot the bill for the other 50% that are not paying taxes at all. Earned Income Credit...so if you just make babies and more babies until your eggs run out the government will help you with that. How about you don't have any kids or just have one that you can afford and don't expect the government to help out. Be responsible and learn to pay your own way..that is my motto in life. I don't take, I don't expect and I pay in to the system. Why is that so hard for some people?
mindserve wrote:
it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing
that "50% don't pay anything" line is misleading at best, totally false at worst. that "50%" does pay SS & Medicare taxes. they pay sales, property and gas taxes like everybody else, too. they probably end up paying state income taxes, too. they get a refund on federal income tax. but not on all the other taxes. and, don't forget: the median income (single earner) in the US is under $30K/yr. so they get a break from their fed income tax. big deal. we're not talking about people livin large, here.
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In Florida our sales tax is tiered based on the type of good being purchases. Ie, food-stuffs have significantly less tax that other items. But it isn't carried to far. Mostly just a difference between Food, Prepared Food, and Other. However, such a tiered system could allow the impoverished a welcome tax break since necessary food items could go un-taxed (fair for all that eat) whereas other items could carry different tax rates. I did not mean to suggest tiered based on income. Such a tiering proposal would eliminate the proviso in the "Fair-Tax" plan of issue refunds every year. The IRS, will still be there, Read the fair tax book, I have. Also, notice, in the very book outlining the complete proposal, the payroll tax does not go away, it is suggested to go away. The law will stay on the books that allows it. Again, I am merely speaking from the book I read from whatever senator it was that proposed it. I don't usually read such things but it was shoved under my nose. The problem is most individuals, associate fair tax with flat tax which are two different proposals. The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
The fair tax plan is littered with political double speak and loop holes.
what proponents of all magic tax plans fail to admit is that their beautiful, logical, crystalline tax plan will also be immediately riddled with new loopholes and tax breaks. that is how politics works: taxes are tweaked to benefit benefactors. always. we could end all loopholes in our current system too, but they'd be right back in, before the ink was dry on the bill that eliminated them. in other words "no loopholes!" is a sham argument.
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mindserve wrote:
it appears that now 50% of the people have done this with the governments blessing
that "50% don't pay anything" line is misleading at best, totally false at worst. that "50%" does pay SS & Medicare taxes. they pay sales, property and gas taxes like everybody else, too. they probably end up paying state income taxes, too. they get a refund on federal income tax. but not on all the other taxes. and, don't forget: the median income (single earner) in the US is under $30K/yr. so they get a break from their fed income tax. big deal. we're not talking about people livin large, here.
50% don't pay Federal "income" taxes. Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home. They might pay sales tax and "State" income tax but again, that's at the state level not Federal level. What I am referring to is the FairTax which is at a Federal level not state or county. BTW, They have to pay federal income taxes to get refunds or be entitled to Earned Income Credits. So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money. Have no kids and you pay your own way. When those kids grow up, and they do...then you will see how your income which has not gone up will now be taxed and you will have even less to live on. Think you weren't livin large as you say...you are now livin really really tight.
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http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Neal-Boortz/dp/0060875410[^] And I stand corrected, Congressman John Linder not Senator. Read the book, it is the proposal. Everything else is filtered by other peoples opinions.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
From what I have read and from what others have read it's a positive reaction , not negative. There are always going to be things that don't work in any system but I do believe in the FairTax as do many others. Heck, if it doesn't work we can always go back to our old system or a hybrid system.
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50% don't pay Federal "income" taxes. Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home. They might pay sales tax and "State" income tax but again, that's at the state level not Federal level. What I am referring to is the FairTax which is at a Federal level not state or county. BTW, They have to pay federal income taxes to get refunds or be entitled to Earned Income Credits. So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money. Have no kids and you pay your own way. When those kids grow up, and they do...then you will see how your income which has not gone up will now be taxed and you will have even less to live on. Think you weren't livin large as you say...you are now livin really really tight.
mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
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Dan Neely wrote:
The super rich who're able to save a much larger fraction of their income than most people at our level still would end up paying less.
But HWY do people save money? Its to have the security of spending in the future. Eventually this money will come into the system as goods purchases, whereupon it gets taxed. The government taxes money when it changes hands. Thus income tax, CGT, inheritance, VAT etc etc etc, as well as various other taxes for services such as local council tax, road tax etc. It doesnt matter whether you tax money at earning or spending, you will tax it because it will be spent.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
The government taxes money when it changes hands. Thus income tax, CGT, inheritance, VAT etc etc etc, as well as various other taxes for services such as local council tax, road tax etc.
and this is why proponents of these tax schemes have worked like mad to end the US's "estate" tax.
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Someone earns an extra £100 a year and gets to keep all of it. I earn an extra £100, I get to keep £48 of it. Hardly fair, considering how much tax I am already paying. If there is to be fairness, then tax all at the same level.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I earn an extra £100, I get to keep £48 of it.
but you already kept 100% of the "extra" money from the bracket that that other "someone" didn't earn enough to break out of. right?
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mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
We are talking about two different things. You are talking about state taxes, property taxes at the county and state levels...I am talking about income tax at the federal level. They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes. They don't always pay upfront as you think either. They can pay nothing depending on how many dependents they have. Withholding tax is computed based on that and if you have a few kids and are single you pay no income tax..as if it were a prebate. So that's won't change under the fair tax. Now that mama with 4 kids and no husband won't have any taxes at all anyway and she will get her prebate card when she wants to buy food or a car or clothing etc. Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
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mindserve wrote:
Yes, they might very well pay property taxes but that's at the county level and only if they own a home.
right, etc.. but, this is why the "50% don't pay taxes" line is misleading. those people do pay taxes, all the same taxes most people do. they just get a refund on this one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
So if they have kids, the government gives them extra money.
right. it's a tax credit. as is the much larger one that people get for merely owning a home. odd how i never hear people complaining about that one - except when congress makes noises about ending it. then people complain!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/18/us-economy-credit-rating[^] Here is what's wrong. We have too much debt. Now we will just raise the debt ceiling and then what? How far can this go on until it does collapse. Republicans want to cut programs. Democrats want to raise taxes. Really, this is just my opinion but I don't see how cutting programs or raising taxes will trim 14 trillion dollars. I am not sure we in the US can get out of this mess either. I don't want to see social security go away or medicaid or medicare. But I don't want to have to pay more in taxes out of my paycheck either. Between taxes and insurance ( health insurance) 1/2 of my paycheck is gone. GONE ! Sometimes I don't think it pays to work at all. Maybe I should do like Brad and Angelina and just go around and pick up kids to adopt. I bet I would get lots of tax breaks that way.
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We are talking about two different things. You are talking about state taxes, property taxes at the county and state levels...I am talking about income tax at the federal level. They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes. They don't always pay upfront as you think either. They can pay nothing depending on how many dependents they have. Withholding tax is computed based on that and if you have a few kids and are single you pay no income tax..as if it were a prebate. So that's won't change under the fair tax. Now that mama with 4 kids and no husband won't have any taxes at all anyway and she will get her prebate card when she wants to buy food or a car or clothing etc. Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
mindserve wrote:
We are talking about two different things.
yes. i'm talking about the phrase that people use to describe the situation you're describing. people say "half of Americans don't even pay no income tax! dagnabbit!" it's made without qualification, usually by people who want to complain about freeloaders. and it's only after much effort that they will admit that those people do, in fact, pay taxes. they just get a refund on one specific tax.
mindserve wrote:
They say 50% do not pay taxes..federal taxes.
and that's not even true. SS and Medicare are both federal taxes. 15% (if you count the employer portion)
mindserve wrote:
Tax credits for the poor..tax credits for the rich and the middle get what?
well, first, define "middle". EITC applies up to the mid-$40Ks. the housing credit applies to everyone who has a house. there are various child credits, up to $85K. there are 'savings' credits. the 401k system is a huge tax benefit for anyone who pays. if you have a job that has health benefits, the money you spend on health insurance is exempt from taxes. etc. etc. etc. etc.