Business manners
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I completely agree with you, except for under those circumstances when: 1. Deadlines themselves are unrealistic, and are set by one or more eejits. And you can't explain it to them because they think they know better. 2. Meetings and appointments are a complete waste of time, and are not being used effectively to communicate and address the problems (you have something like 2 meetings stretching for an hour each, EVERY day). I've been in one such place, and I had to quit that company in a few months.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
I was referring to behaviors I see under normal circumstances, so many so-called business people who completely disregard the interests of others, but have the temerity to think of themselves as "professionals." They are self-centered infants in business suits. I have worked for managers who seem to be so insecure that the only way they can feel important is to call a meeting. In the worst case, I was assigned to problem projects for many years because I have a habit of putting things back on track when they go awry. But upper management sucked the life force out of the workers by demanding daily (or more frequent) meetings to discuss why we're still behind. I can think of few things more counterproductive... Over the years I've developed a few rules for status meetings. If it takes more than 1 hour, the scope is too wide, or you have too many participants. Trim it. If you must have such meetings, to handle a crisis for instance, hold it after the productive workday, and limit the scope to, "what did we do today? What will we do tomorrow? How does this advance our progress on the critical path? Thank you, and good night." And pay the people for the overtime; if it's that important, it's worth the small investment. And it's respectful to do so. The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people. Optimizing the bottom line is always a nice goal, but it's rarely the most important one.
Will Rogers never met me.
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PaulowniaK wrote:
In Japanese common sense, you don't take a month's holiday.
You don't even take a full day's holiday.I simply don't get it. Why can't you take a full day's holiday? Over here (and presumably in many other parts of the world), people get a number of paid day offs for each year, and a few of those holidays can be carried over to the next calendar year, can be accumulated into big numbers, and can be used in a stretch, when needed. In fact, that could be more than a month.
PaulowniaK wrote:
Make sure you do your work up front so you do have something to report even on the day you get back to work?
This is where our opinions differ. Holidays are those days when I do NOT have to work. I'll do my work until the day I leave for vacation, but for the days that I'm off, they'll pay me for doing nothing because it's a privilege that I've earned by working hard for a long time, and everyone deserves a nice break once in a while. And once I'm off, they can contact me ONLY in case of emergencies until the vacation period is over. Again, I can send a report and go to vacation, but it's nonsensical for a boss to expect me to send a "report" after my vacation. If I were to send what I did during the vacation, then the report would contain non-KSS, NSFW, and some seriously sick stuff. :)
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I simply don't get it. Why can't you take a full day's holiday? Over here (and presumably in many other parts of the world), people get a number of paid day offs for each year, and a few of those holidays can be carried over to the next calendar year, can be accumulated into big numbers, and use it at a stretch, whenever I want to. In fact, that could be more than a month.
Yup. That's how it works here too. But, don't expect to have any friends at work when you get back if you go away for a month! ;P OK, I exaggerate, but it really is hard to take days off here. It's just the general vibe you get. Actually, I take lots of days off as I don't work on weekends (holidays are quoted to you including weekends, so it looks like a lot but it isn't really). Luckily, that's accepted at my workplace, but it's not always the case.
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I simply don't get it. Why can't you take a full day's holiday? Over here (and presumably in many other parts of the world), people get a number of paid day offs for each year, and a few of those holidays can be carried over to the next calendar year, can be accumulated into big numbers, and use it at a stretch, whenever I want to. In fact, that could be more than a month.
Yup. That's how it works here too. But, don't expect to have any friends at work when you get back if you go away for a month! ;P OK, I exaggerate, but it really is hard to take days off here. It's just the general vibe you get. Actually, I take lots of days off as I don't work on weekends (holidays are quoted to you including weekends, so it looks like a lot but it isn't really). Luckily, that's accepted at my workplace, but it's not always the case.
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
PaulowniaK wrote:
don't expect to have any friends at work when you get back if you go away for a month!
I go to work for money, not friends. :)
PaulowniaK wrote:
OK, I exaggerate, but it really is hard to take days off here.
It's just the general vibe you get.I wonder why should it be "hard" to take days off. Am I making it "hard" for the employer to get their work done? Then why should they create a vibe that makes it "hard" for me to use one of my benefits? I'd then be forced to create a vibe that would remind them that I work for money, and I can always find someone else who will give me some more money, and won't whine about me enjoying my holidays. I be reasonable and keep the team well informed of when I plan to do my vacation. If the management is too incompetent to plan and arrange things accordingly to suit to the absence of one member for a month's time, then those children should be replaced by some adults before they ruin the company.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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PaulowniaK wrote:
don't expect to have any friends at work when you get back if you go away for a month!
I go to work for money, not friends. :)
PaulowniaK wrote:
OK, I exaggerate, but it really is hard to take days off here.
It's just the general vibe you get.I wonder why should it be "hard" to take days off. Am I making it "hard" for the employer to get their work done? Then why should they create a vibe that makes it "hard" for me to use one of my benefits? I'd then be forced to create a vibe that would remind them that I work for money, and I can always find someone else who will give me some more money, and won't whine about me enjoying my holidays. I be reasonable and keep the team well informed of when I plan to do my vacation. If the management is too incompetent to plan and arrange things accordingly to suit to the absence of one member for a month's time, then those children should be replaced by some adults before they ruin the company.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
This is going slightly off topic but...
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote:
I go to work for money, not friends.
Well, there you go. I think that just about wraps it up. ;)
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
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PaulowniaK wrote:
don't expect to have any friends at work when you get back if you go away for a month!
I go to work for money, not friends. :)
PaulowniaK wrote:
OK, I exaggerate, but it really is hard to take days off here.
It's just the general vibe you get.I wonder why should it be "hard" to take days off. Am I making it "hard" for the employer to get their work done? Then why should they create a vibe that makes it "hard" for me to use one of my benefits? I'd then be forced to create a vibe that would remind them that I work for money, and I can always find someone else who will give me some more money, and won't whine about me enjoying my holidays. I be reasonable and keep the team well informed of when I plan to do my vacation. If the management is too incompetent to plan and arrange things accordingly to suit to the absence of one member for a month's time, then those children should be replaced by some adults before they ruin the company.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
It tends to be particularly like that in Japan from what I've seen... something to do with their culture and work ethic. I've seen some interesting documentaries on what they (used to?) go through to become low level managers in a large firm... scary stuff!!
Reminiscing just isn't what it used to be!! Booger Mobile - My bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - check out the blog here!! | If you feel generous - make a donation to Camp Quality!!
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From what I experienced in my current company, which is an American company somewhere in asia. If you miss deadline, either it's OT to make up to the deadline, or prepare to face the evil consequences. ( I'll leave you to imagine how evil it is. All I can say it's not very good. )
That's generally a bogus attitude for a company to take. A missed deadline can be as the result of poor planning on part of the Project Management team - so why should the team suffer?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I was referring to behaviors I see under normal circumstances, so many so-called business people who completely disregard the interests of others, but have the temerity to think of themselves as "professionals." They are self-centered infants in business suits. I have worked for managers who seem to be so insecure that the only way they can feel important is to call a meeting. In the worst case, I was assigned to problem projects for many years because I have a habit of putting things back on track when they go awry. But upper management sucked the life force out of the workers by demanding daily (or more frequent) meetings to discuss why we're still behind. I can think of few things more counterproductive... Over the years I've developed a few rules for status meetings. If it takes more than 1 hour, the scope is too wide, or you have too many participants. Trim it. If you must have such meetings, to handle a crisis for instance, hold it after the productive workday, and limit the scope to, "what did we do today? What will we do tomorrow? How does this advance our progress on the critical path? Thank you, and good night." And pay the people for the overtime; if it's that important, it's worth the small investment. And it's respectful to do so. The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people. Optimizing the bottom line is always a nice goal, but it's rarely the most important one.
Will Rogers never met me.
Roger Wright wrote:
The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people.
The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people be a human being. Fixed that for you.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
That's generally a bogus attitude for a company to take. A missed deadline can be as the result of poor planning on part of the Project Management team - so why should the team suffer?
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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I'm curious about what people think in general about keeping/ missing deadlines. I ask because I'm from a Western working environment (there wasn't much business training there), but now in an Eastern working environment (again without much training, but more experience), and I believe there are some differences in what is expected in a business environment depending on where you are in the world. In my opinion, if I were to miss a deadline for whatever reason, I'd email up front to tell them that I am about to miss the deadline, and when I expect the updated deadline to be. I think it's the same as when you try to meet a friend for coffee, say, and you are running late. Wouldn't you phone (or otherwise) as soon as you become aware that you are going to be late? Is it too much to ask a colleague or other business collaborator to do the same? Also, does "I've been off sick" or "I had a family emergency" work as a good enough excuse for missing a deadline when it comes to working with other companies? In my opinion, if a company can't provide their service or goods in time because an employee suddenly becomes unavailable, the company hasn't got a proper risk management in place. Of course, I'm sure, there are exceptional circumstances (you wouldn't apply the same thought to the companies wrecked by the latest earthquake and tsunami in Japan), but in general, I'd have thought deadlines should be adhered to by company teamwork. Maybe I think this way at the moment because the deadline I'm referring to has been broken so many times... I do recall in my last workplace, some people (Westerners) were writing things like "there has been no progress on this project this month because I've been on holiday" and the boss (Oriental) told them not to write such things. I also think that writing that you've on holiday in your monthly report is silly. A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress. Anyway, here I am, wasting a morning again... Any thoughts on the above issues welcome...
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
What is appropriate and what people do are often at odds with each other. It is completely unprofessional to be even a moment late in the U.S. yet in the vast cube farms I visit you would be surprised at how many people show up over 15 minutes late to a meeting without apology. When I run the meetings I start without them; on-time. What separates a professional from the vast masses is not what they do but what you do.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
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Deadlines?! We don't need no steenking deadlines!
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Roger Wright wrote:
The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people.
The one thing missing in the curriculum for an MBA is a class on how to manage people be a human being. Fixed that for you.
Software Zen:
delete this;Thanks, Gary! Have a virtual donut. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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Thanks, Gary! Have a virtual donut. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
All part of the friendly service :-D.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I'm curious about what people think in general about keeping/ missing deadlines. I ask because I'm from a Western working environment (there wasn't much business training there), but now in an Eastern working environment (again without much training, but more experience), and I believe there are some differences in what is expected in a business environment depending on where you are in the world. In my opinion, if I were to miss a deadline for whatever reason, I'd email up front to tell them that I am about to miss the deadline, and when I expect the updated deadline to be. I think it's the same as when you try to meet a friend for coffee, say, and you are running late. Wouldn't you phone (or otherwise) as soon as you become aware that you are going to be late? Is it too much to ask a colleague or other business collaborator to do the same? Also, does "I've been off sick" or "I had a family emergency" work as a good enough excuse for missing a deadline when it comes to working with other companies? In my opinion, if a company can't provide their service or goods in time because an employee suddenly becomes unavailable, the company hasn't got a proper risk management in place. Of course, I'm sure, there are exceptional circumstances (you wouldn't apply the same thought to the companies wrecked by the latest earthquake and tsunami in Japan), but in general, I'd have thought deadlines should be adhered to by company teamwork. Maybe I think this way at the moment because the deadline I'm referring to has been broken so many times... I do recall in my last workplace, some people (Westerners) were writing things like "there has been no progress on this project this month because I've been on holiday" and the boss (Oriental) told them not to write such things. I also think that writing that you've on holiday in your monthly report is silly. A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress. Anyway, here I am, wasting a morning again... Any thoughts on the above issues welcome...
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
The fact that someone is on holiday should not affect a "project" When you asked the question if it's okay for there to not be progress on something because someone is on holiday, I think that's hard to answer without knowing more details. If the work being done has to be done by a particular person, and that person is on holiday, then that fact should have been incorporated into the project and any schedules or commitments would reflect that. And thus, the fact that he's on holiday would not have been any surprised to anyone, and would not be considered an impact since it's already in the plan. If this was a notice after the fact (after he took the holiday) and then is telling his stakeholders it is why nothing got done, then that's bad, regardless if it's Eastern or Western culture. That's just bad project / time management.
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I'm curious about what people think in general about keeping/ missing deadlines. I ask because I'm from a Western working environment (there wasn't much business training there), but now in an Eastern working environment (again without much training, but more experience), and I believe there are some differences in what is expected in a business environment depending on where you are in the world. In my opinion, if I were to miss a deadline for whatever reason, I'd email up front to tell them that I am about to miss the deadline, and when I expect the updated deadline to be. I think it's the same as when you try to meet a friend for coffee, say, and you are running late. Wouldn't you phone (or otherwise) as soon as you become aware that you are going to be late? Is it too much to ask a colleague or other business collaborator to do the same? Also, does "I've been off sick" or "I had a family emergency" work as a good enough excuse for missing a deadline when it comes to working with other companies? In my opinion, if a company can't provide their service or goods in time because an employee suddenly becomes unavailable, the company hasn't got a proper risk management in place. Of course, I'm sure, there are exceptional circumstances (you wouldn't apply the same thought to the companies wrecked by the latest earthquake and tsunami in Japan), but in general, I'd have thought deadlines should be adhered to by company teamwork. Maybe I think this way at the moment because the deadline I'm referring to has been broken so many times... I do recall in my last workplace, some people (Westerners) were writing things like "there has been no progress on this project this month because I've been on holiday" and the boss (Oriental) told them not to write such things. I also think that writing that you've on holiday in your monthly report is silly. A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress. Anyway, here I am, wasting a morning again... Any thoughts on the above issues welcome...
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
I think the quote in my signature properly addresses this situation.
Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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As a developer I don't consider deadlines a relevant issues, I deliver as fast as possible under all circumstances. I work weekends only under duress and it will never be taken for granted. Deadlines are for the PM (this is one of the major reasons I am NOT a PM) and a good PM will be aware of all factors affecting the project, it is then up to the PM/business to resource the project to meet the deadlines. But then I'm a bastard to work with! my PM tells me all the time.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
"A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress." ~ Project planning calendars MUST include holidays and all employees' planned absences "...a good PM will be aware of all factors affecting the project..." ~ I concur, see comment above from original post A missed deadline can have a myriad causes, but is seldom unforeseen. ~ Be polite, call ahead. ~ Be a grown up, admit fault (if the fault is yours), but try not to point fingers. :o)
-Bob
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PaulowniaK wrote:
In Japanese common sense, you don't take a month's holiday.
You don't even take a full day's holiday.I simply don't get it. Why can't you take a full day's holiday? Over here (and presumably in many other parts of the world), people get a number of paid day offs for each year, and a few of those holidays can be carried over to the next calendar year, can be accumulated into big numbers, and can be used in a stretch, when needed. In fact, that could be more than a month.
PaulowniaK wrote:
Make sure you do your work up front so you do have something to report even on the day you get back to work?
This is where our opinions differ. Holidays are those days when I do NOT have to work. I'll do my work until the day I leave for vacation, but for the days that I'm off, they'll pay me for doing nothing because it's a privilege that I've earned by working hard for a long time, and everyone deserves a nice break once in a while. And once I'm off, they can contact me ONLY in case of emergencies until the vacation period is over. Again, I can send a report and go to vacation, but it's nonsensical for a boss to expect me to send a "report" after my vacation. If I were to send what I did during the vacation, then the report would contain non-KSS, NSFW, and some seriously sick stuff. :)
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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I'm curious about what people think in general about keeping/ missing deadlines. I ask because I'm from a Western working environment (there wasn't much business training there), but now in an Eastern working environment (again without much training, but more experience), and I believe there are some differences in what is expected in a business environment depending on where you are in the world. In my opinion, if I were to miss a deadline for whatever reason, I'd email up front to tell them that I am about to miss the deadline, and when I expect the updated deadline to be. I think it's the same as when you try to meet a friend for coffee, say, and you are running late. Wouldn't you phone (or otherwise) as soon as you become aware that you are going to be late? Is it too much to ask a colleague or other business collaborator to do the same? Also, does "I've been off sick" or "I had a family emergency" work as a good enough excuse for missing a deadline when it comes to working with other companies? In my opinion, if a company can't provide their service or goods in time because an employee suddenly becomes unavailable, the company hasn't got a proper risk management in place. Of course, I'm sure, there are exceptional circumstances (you wouldn't apply the same thought to the companies wrecked by the latest earthquake and tsunami in Japan), but in general, I'd have thought deadlines should be adhered to by company teamwork. Maybe I think this way at the moment because the deadline I'm referring to has been broken so many times... I do recall in my last workplace, some people (Westerners) were writing things like "there has been no progress on this project this month because I've been on holiday" and the boss (Oriental) told them not to write such things. I also think that writing that you've on holiday in your monthly report is silly. A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress. Anyway, here I am, wasting a morning again... Any thoughts on the above issues welcome...
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
Please see my signature to know what I think about deadlines :)
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
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I'm curious about what people think in general about keeping/ missing deadlines. I ask because I'm from a Western working environment (there wasn't much business training there), but now in an Eastern working environment (again without much training, but more experience), and I believe there are some differences in what is expected in a business environment depending on where you are in the world. In my opinion, if I were to miss a deadline for whatever reason, I'd email up front to tell them that I am about to miss the deadline, and when I expect the updated deadline to be. I think it's the same as when you try to meet a friend for coffee, say, and you are running late. Wouldn't you phone (or otherwise) as soon as you become aware that you are going to be late? Is it too much to ask a colleague or other business collaborator to do the same? Also, does "I've been off sick" or "I had a family emergency" work as a good enough excuse for missing a deadline when it comes to working with other companies? In my opinion, if a company can't provide their service or goods in time because an employee suddenly becomes unavailable, the company hasn't got a proper risk management in place. Of course, I'm sure, there are exceptional circumstances (you wouldn't apply the same thought to the companies wrecked by the latest earthquake and tsunami in Japan), but in general, I'd have thought deadlines should be adhered to by company teamwork. Maybe I think this way at the moment because the deadline I'm referring to has been broken so many times... I do recall in my last workplace, some people (Westerners) were writing things like "there has been no progress on this project this month because I've been on holiday" and the boss (Oriental) told them not to write such things. I also think that writing that you've on holiday in your monthly report is silly. A holiday shouldn't be an excuse for lack of progress. Anyway, here I am, wasting a morning again... Any thoughts on the above issues welcome...
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...
Scheduling is a specialized skill that takes time and effort to develop. Within a team, individuals vary in scheduling skill just like they do in development skill. If a team member is not skilled in schedule estimating, it isn't reasonable for an internal manager to hold this lack of skill against them. A manager who values good scheduling estimates should help their team develop this skill. The manager can lead the team to develop concensus estimates, track progress, give gentle feedback when estimates are consistently wrong, and reward correct estimates in a measureable way. A manager might instead use negative reinforcement to develop scheduling skill in a team; yelling at people who are late, demanding they put in extra hours, leaving them to track their own success or failure. This is just bad management. There is no industry norm that requires workers to be punished for something they are not skilled at. A development organization accepting an engagement to deliver a product on schedule has fewer excuses. Organizations should know how good they are at scheduling before contracting for work. External customers have more right to expect a contracting organization to do what it takes to make good a slip. An organization should find more resources to put on a project if they run over their estimate. They should bill these extra hours, or accept reduced profit depending on the contract to which they agreed. Some organizations make an initial estimate, and then expect the developers to bear all the schedule risk, holding profit steady by extracting more hours from the same staff resources without compensation. It's especially bad when the initial schedule estimate is not highly correllated to the amount of work to do. There is no cultural bias to behave in this way other than the universal bias of greed. There's the rub. Individuals aren't good at scheduling. Contracting organizations are expected to be good at scheduling, and good at making a profit. And the least productive team members are the most vulnerable. That means there will always be pressure on the team to put in extra hours. But every team member has another choice. If they are made responsible for too much schedule risk (that is, if they are required to work too many hours), they can find new work under better managers. I highly recommend that individual contributors think about how risk is shared in any development organization to which they belong; where do the extra hours come from, and where does the profit go to. If you don't like
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"Needing steenking deadlines we are not." -- Yoda
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This whole thing needs to clarified, was the "boss" aware that he was on vacation? or is it some other case where "he" is a freelancer? etc. hard to argue about something vague
fuximus wrote:
This whole thing needs to clarified, was the "boss" aware that he was on vacation? or is it some other case where "he" is a freelancer? etc. hard to argue about something vague
The employee in question did book (as in informed the boss) his holiday in advance (we were all supposed to give at least 1 week's notice, if I remember correctly). The employee knew we all had to submit a monthly report roughly at the same time every month, so it's partly his own bad time management that he had to put "I was on holiday" in the report. Since the minimum notice for a holiday regardless of its length is a week, I doubt the boss had time to juggle the schedule to incorporate the diminished man power. But then, again, that's the boss's fault for not having a realistic strategy in place for informing about holidays.
Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike... me...