Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead...
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digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
Never said that either
Actually, that's all you've said. You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.
digital man wrote:
you're twisting what I say to suit your own agenda.
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out. Pray tell how that can be twisted. Did you mean to say "They're human beings with strong beliefs"? If so, I missed the inference. I imagine that the fanatics on their side of the fence talk a lot about killing, too -- the difference being that they get out of their armchairs, rather than just verbalise their hatred.
digital man wrote:
I like it here and I will do whatever I need to do to protect it
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die. This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Actually, that's all you've said.
You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.WTF are you talking about???
Mark Wallace wrote:
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out
Given our possible choices for a peaceful outcome; yes, before they do it to us and they will, given the chance, do it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die.
Absolutely not: I'd rather just nuke them and be done.
Mark Wallace wrote:
This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
Yes, do what cowards always do, run and hide.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Sure, you hate him, and you've got good reason to. Unfortunately, he and others like him also hate you, because of the power that has been given to capitalism, which, never forget, is an evil according to every religion on the planet. How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse. It's only when you try to understand why people hate you that you can begin to make things better.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse
He won't be organizing or helping to pay for any more attacks on innocent people. As long as people like the Navy Seals are willing to fight to protect you, you can spout your idealistic rhetoric. Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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Mark Wallace wrote:
Actually, that's all you've said.
You give lip service to the idea that they are humans, but you follow it up with "They're inhuman B*st*rds!" rants.WTF are you talking about???
Mark Wallace wrote:
What you said in another posting to this thread is that we have to take them all out
Given our possible choices for a peaceful outcome; yes, before they do it to us and they will, given the chance, do it.
Mark Wallace wrote:
I'm sure you'll be right there, cheering the TV, as our soldiers go off to kill and die.
Absolutely not: I'd rather just nuke them and be done.
Mark Wallace wrote:
This thread has now become too soapbox for the lounge, so I'm quitting it.
Yes, do what cowards always do, run and hide.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
Having a debate with Mark is like climbing an ice mountain, it will get you absolutely no where fast. My 2 cents.
-- You don't hire a handyman to build a house, you hire a specialist.
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digital man wrote:
However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine.
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want.
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do. We are talking about people with families and children. If you believe that they are not human, or that they are inferior creatures, then you are wrong. They will fight for their beliefs the same way that you will fight for yours, and all that will happen is that more people will get killed. If you don't try to understand these people -- these humans; your equals -- then you must also accept partial responsibility for what they do. Try: "How would I like it if the greed of people in [enter country name] led to the suffering of millions of people in countries all over the world?" I don't have an argument against that, because it's an obvious truth. Western greed, with its "grab everything then crash and burn" tenet has devastating effects on people all over the world, and we don't even have the balls to apologise. It really is no wonder that people in the East look West and see evil. If they were doing it to us, our "terrorists" would be hailed as heroes, for fighting it. Unless you stop ignoring our own "peccadilloes", and start considering that the guys on the other side of the fence are just that -- guys -- you really are a part of the problem.
digital man wrote:
lunatics
digital man wrote:
utterly alien to us
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, th
I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone. When someone enters your hoe, your place of business or your country to try and kill you, the time for reason is over. Its fine to spout platitudes about discussing our differences, and when the other person is willing to talk, thats great. But some people have no interest in conversation. This guy was one of them.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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You , and your country are the evil one ! And Lucifer him self came to take lessons from you !
I know nothing , I know nothing ...
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Mark Wallace wrote:
How many times does it have to be said that hatred cannot be cured by bullets and bombs? Killing him in such an un-Christian way, does not, and will not, make things better. Expect worse to come, because all that blind hatred can do is make things worse
He won't be organizing or helping to pay for any more attacks on innocent people. As long as people like the Navy Seals are willing to fight to protect you, you can spout your idealistic rhetoric. Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote:
Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
And his friends and family will be ever more happy to do so now, seeing his death as murder and martyrdom. So what, exactly, did all the violence and death involved in killing him achieve? Where's the profit? It hasn't made us any friends. People who hated us now hate us more; people who didn't much like us now hate us. And don't for one minute think that it has made them afraid. You can't take away someone's beliefs with violence. The only fear now is on our side, because there will be reprisals (so you can expect to lose a few more civil rights, in the interests of "national security"). Surely it's quite obvious that making things worse does not make things better. The best warriors know that if there's no way to win a battle, you don't start it, and there isn't a victory to be had, here -- unless your final aim is genocide (and if it is, then I don't want you on my side -- you belong with the psychos and bad-guys). Understanding your opponent's motives is a good start toward preventing increases in his following, and in making friends of people who could have become enemies -- but that requires thinking, common sense, and morals; it's hard, grown-ups' work. We don't want that, do we? It's so much easier to sit in armchairs and scream "KILL 'EM ALL!", isn't it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone. When someone enters your hoe, your place of business or your country to try and kill you, the time for reason is over. Its fine to spout platitudes about discussing our differences, and when the other person is willing to talk, thats great. But some people have no interest in conversation. This guy was one of them.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote:
I think the problem you have is believing that you can reason with everyone.
No, you can't. But giving them easy ways to gain followers is just plain stupid. Finding ways to sideline and alienate them within their own communities may be more difficult and less fun than the "playstation" solution, but it's the only way to win such a war. And remember that every time you have to kowtow in the name of national security, you are giving them a victory.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Having a debate with Mark is like climbing an ice mountain, it will get you absolutely no where fast. My 2 cents.
-- You don't hire a handyman to build a house, you hire a specialist.
I know but it is fun cos I know he's full of crap and will run as soon as he gets mired in his own nonsensical naivety: he really is a bit of a coward.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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While it's quite humorous, and a good point, I don't think it's appropriate. These people are not Muslims; they're sociopathic mass murderers who take on the colors of a peaceful faith in order to mask the true nature of their actions. To treat them in any manner which supports their subterfuge by accepting them as representatives of Islam is an insult to the true followers of that faith. Treating them as common criminals with no special significance is more appropriate, though far better than they deserve. Treating them as vermin, subhumans in need of extermination, is appropriate, but that violates the standards by which we claim to live as a nation, and as a member of a world community. For us to remain legitimate as a nation of laws, we must suppress normal revulsion of the acts of such creatures of evil, and continue to uphold the principles by which we define our existence. Only a few things separate us from animals, and important among them is the ability to have and to hold to a set of morals. When we lose that, we lose everything.
Will Rogers never met me.
Very true. From the standpoint of the vast majority of Muslims, doing so would be reprehansible and probably create even more terrorists against us. But from the standpoint of OBL believing that he himself was a Muslin, treating his body against his own beliefs is very acceptable - just don't make it public.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak -
Doug Goulden wrote:
Remember this guy would have been more than happy to kill you or yours.
And his friends and family will be ever more happy to do so now, seeing his death as murder and martyrdom. So what, exactly, did all the violence and death involved in killing him achieve? Where's the profit? It hasn't made us any friends. People who hated us now hate us more; people who didn't much like us now hate us. And don't for one minute think that it has made them afraid. You can't take away someone's beliefs with violence. The only fear now is on our side, because there will be reprisals (so you can expect to lose a few more civil rights, in the interests of "national security"). Surely it's quite obvious that making things worse does not make things better. The best warriors know that if there's no way to win a battle, you don't start it, and there isn't a victory to be had, here -- unless your final aim is genocide (and if it is, then I don't want you on my side -- you belong with the psychos and bad-guys). Understanding your opponent's motives is a good start toward preventing increases in his following, and in making friends of people who could have become enemies -- but that requires thinking, common sense, and morals; it's hard, grown-ups' work. We don't want that, do we? It's so much easier to sit in armchairs and scream "KILL 'EM ALL!", isn't it?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Surely it's quite obvious that making things worse does not make things better. The best warriors know that if there's no way to win a battle, you don't start it, and there isn't a victory to be had, here
If you remember your history, you would recall that bin Laden "declared war" on the US, we tried to deal with it as a police action, and it didn't work. I would agree with you that having to kill people is regretable, but I would also say that sometimes its what I would call a necessary evil. I spent the 80's riding around in a balistic missle submarine, part of our so called MAD strategy. Someone can say that it was a crazy idea, but the end result, it worked. I'm happy we never had to use any of the weapons we had, it would have been a failure. The people we faced in the Soviet Union had the same hopes and fears as we did and wanted to go home and see their family every night just like me. The people we are dealing with in Al Quaeda look at the world differently and feel like they are on a mission from God..... you cannot reason with people like that. I also believe that the vast majority of people in the Muslim world have the same hopes, fears, and aspirations that I do. People who can't be reasoned with or feel they have nothing to lose are the most dangerous.
Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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Roger Wright wrote:
These people are not Muslims; they're sociopathic mass murderers who take on the colors of a peaceful faith in order to mask the true nature of their actions.
Actually, they're religious people, whose religion says the same thing that all religions say: that capitalism is evil and the work of the devil. I really find it difficult to classify someone as evil if he's is willing to die in the fight against what he believes to be evil. Celebrating the death (or, in this case, cold-blooded murder which involved the murder of thousands upon thousands of others as "collateral damage") of such a man should hardly be a recommended pastime for Christians, whose own son of God himself once destroyed a temple of capitalism, so will probably welcome into Heaven others who fight against the same evil. A lot of people need to do a lot of serious thinking about whom and what they're supporting, and whom and what they're hating.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Celebrating the death (or, in this case, cold-blooded murder which involved the murder of thousands upon thousands of others as "collateral damage") of such a man should hardly be a recommended pastime for Christians, whose own son of God himself once destroyed a temple of capitalism, so will probably welcome into Heaven others who fight against the same evil.
Who said it's Christians celebrating. Plenty of non religious folks are happy as shit, just check out the markets...
Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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Osama Bin Laden[^] is finally dead. It's wrong to celebrate death, but the death of evil incarnate is a cause for rejoicing! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
Well at least the won't be trolling the Lounge any more.
Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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And within the cantonment (gated area with checkpoints).
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
And so near China... Trying to work that in somehow...
Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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digital man wrote:
However, when faced with an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that they think and whose dictum is to kill me and mine then yes, I will strike first and hard to protect me and mine.
In other words, you will be an intractable enemy that will never compromise or change the way that you think and whose dictum is to kill them and theirs.
digital man wrote:
Mark Wallace wrote:
Bin Laden's people don't believe they're evil; they believe they're fighting evil, so, in their eyes, their actions are every bit as justified as we believe ours are. If we don't try to understand that, we're just condemning our (and their) children to horrible deaths.
That does not matter: unless you are prepared to give in to what they want they will never stop until they do get what they want.
Nonsense. You're dehumanising them, which is the worst possible thing to do. We are talking about people with families and children. If you believe that they are not human, or that they are inferior creatures, then you are wrong. They will fight for their beliefs the same way that you will fight for yours, and all that will happen is that more people will get killed. If you don't try to understand these people -- these humans; your equals -- then you must also accept partial responsibility for what they do. Try: "How would I like it if the greed of people in [enter country name] led to the suffering of millions of people in countries all over the world?" I don't have an argument against that, because it's an obvious truth. Western greed, with its "grab everything then crash and burn" tenet has devastating effects on people all over the world, and we don't even have the balls to apologise. It really is no wonder that people in the East look West and see evil. If they were doing it to us, our "terrorists" would be hailed as heroes, for fighting it. Unless you stop ignoring our own "peccadilloes", and start considering that the guys on the other side of the fence are just that -- guys -- you really are a part of the problem.
digital man wrote:
lunatics
digital man wrote:
utterly alien to us
Try "people" and "pissed off with us", and you'll be getting somewhere, otherwise, th
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Osama Bin Laden[^] is finally dead. It's wrong to celebrate death, but the death of evil incarnate is a cause for rejoicing! :-D
Will Rogers never met me.