Fulltime Employee Freelancing Restrictions
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We aren't allowed to freelance but on the other hand we get paid near top of the scale with very good benefits, so it's fair.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
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Trollslayer wrote:
We aren't allowed to freelance
That seems way too restrictive. So if you say wrote somebody a website on the side is that a firing offense?
Our work is extremely specialised so there is little we could do that wouldn't compete.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
Depends on what your business is. Normally precluding direct competitors is ok. As long as such work doesn't interfere with their job. For instance if they work 80 hours a week on some other job it might impact the 40 that you expect.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design?
That is an interesting scenario. Normally one precludes direct competitors because the employee is using domain knowledge of the one business at the other. But in this case I don't see the domain knowledge problem. The fact that they have technical knowledge, regardless of where learned, is not the same. For example an editor of books knows how to 'edit' but that shouldn't preclude them from also working on a community newspaper as an editor. On the other hand if the editor is working with a specific author and also working with another publisher which has a relationship (or wants to) with the author that is a competitive matter concerning business knowledge. So for the case above one would need to state that the work could not involve customers already with the company.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
how do you resolve them?
With lawyers of course.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
Any general thoughts appreciated.
1. Present it before you hire someone. 2. Provide a process to allow the employee to validate that the work is not a conflict along with providing for written exceptions. As for the last you don't want to lose your top performer simply because they wanted to do a project for a friend and a lawyer said no.
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
I'm not allowed to do contract work for competitors or customers; anything else is fair game.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
If there's no contract that restricts working on the outside, and the person in question is not selling your trade secrets, then it's none of your business.
Best wishes, Hans
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
There are companies that state that any work that you do (usually, but not always, using the skill set that they employ you for) whilst in their employ belongs to them, regardless of whether it is as part of a hobby, for a charity or another employer. The reasoning being that it is almost impossible not to spend at least part of your normal working day thinking about this other work, ergo it was done in their time. Of course this has to be specified in a contract. I don't know if the same thing would be enforceable in Canada though. Perhaps this might have something, or link to something, useful.[^]
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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If there's no contract that restricts working on the outside, and the person in question is not selling your trade secrets, then it's none of your business.
Best wishes, Hans
Well yeah, of course. As I said we are hiring a graphic designer, so I guess I'm looking for what I should include in a contract.
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Our work is extremely specialised so there is little we could do that wouldn't compete.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
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There are companies that state that any work that you do (usually, but not always, using the skill set that they employ you for) whilst in their employ belongs to them, regardless of whether it is as part of a hobby, for a charity or another employer. The reasoning being that it is almost impossible not to spend at least part of your normal working day thinking about this other work, ergo it was done in their time. Of course this has to be specified in a contract. I don't know if the same thing would be enforceable in Canada though. Perhaps this might have something, or link to something, useful.[^]
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
Luckily I haver had bosses like that. I do a lot at home, but I'm always careful that my personal pet projects don't have anything to do with what I do at work, which is not really hard. The usual response was positive when they heard about something I was doing. After all, it could be a benefit when their developers gain expertise in other areas. And often enough they came up with suggestions about how to put my stuff to use for their purposes. ("We would like to have xxx, but don't want to make a project out of it. Can you make your yyyy do xxx?", or simply "What are your plans to earn some money with this?")
"I just exchanged opinions with my boss. I went in with mine and came out with his." - me, 2011 ---
I am endeavoring, Madam, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins - Mr. Spock 1935 and me 2011 -
Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
Hi Mike, I think that without more specifics, you can't get a more focused response to this question: consider two scenarios: 1. You hire a full-time employee for graphic design, stock options are part of their package, you provide medical benefits and other typical employee benefits. 2. You hire an employee less than full-time, or in an outside "contractor" role, for graphic design. They receive no benefits like medical-care, sick-leave, vacation pay, etc. For both designer and employer, I think there's a world of difference in these two scenarios. If you are running a software company with other people's money (venture capital, publicly listed stock, or private stock), you have some obligations as employer that may be legally much more restrictive, depending on contractual obligations. If I am a programmer with stock in a start-up, working sixty-seventy hour weeks in the prime of my life, on the wing-and-a-prayer that the company will be "cashed-out" somewhere along the line, and I see another employee I know is "moonlighting:" is that any of "my business" ? Assume you are a venture-capitalist being invited to put a substantial investment into a start-up company where there is a high-risk of failure: how would you react to the CEO telling you that company policies allow work being done off-site by employees, or outside employment ? Note, that if what your company does is primarily graphic-design related, that would involve a whole different slant on the issues involved in your hiring a designer, imho. Issues of copyright and trademark, in that case, might be more significant ? best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
I have a colleague used to do DBA work for two banks in the same building. Put it this way, your software supplier e.g. Dreamweaver, could well be supplying the suite next door, and when the customer service rep comes by to review your 'requirements' chances are that rep will either have come from 'next door' or be on the way there. I appreciate that there is a differance between a large organisation and a one person company, but company law tends not to make much distinction.
Ger
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huh. Shouldn't that be the other way around? :confused: If you work is highly specialized there are huge areas you could freelance in without conceivably competing with your employer.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
No, if it is highly specialised the area involved is quite narrow. As I say, we get well looked after so it's a fair deal.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
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Well yeah, of course. As I said we are hiring a graphic designer, so I guess I'm looking for what I should include in a contract.
With a graphic designer, I would be more concerned about who owns the rights to the materials they create.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
With a graphic designer, I would be more concerned about who owns the rights to the materials they create.
Software Zen:
delete this;Those issues were taken care of several years ago when we had our first graphic designer, so I'm not concerned about that. The only time "side work" has ever been an issue was when someone called the office because they had a company business card for our graphic designer and asked them if they do websites on the side. That was an odd thing for someone to ask, but what do they say in response? "yes but I'm at work, you can find me"? "yes but I'm at work, here is my number"? "No"? "I cant discuss that at work, but we provide website services here, would you like some information"? I think the last one is most reasonable. At the office when they answer our phones it is expected that they are acting as representatives of the company in the interest of the company. I think that's fairly reasonable, eh?
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No, if it is highly specialised the area involved is quite narrow. As I say, we get well looked after so it's a fair deal.
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^] "Program as if the technical support department is full of serial killers and they know your home address" - Ray Cassick Jr., RIP
I'm still not seeing your point. The more specialized and narrowly focused what you're doing on the job is the more stuff that would be completely unrelated to the domain knowledge you acquired from your employer there would be. IIRC you do something related to Audio/Visual systems. There's no overlap between that and installing FooCMS, loading a dozen documents into it, and fiddling with the CSS to give it the site owners favorite color scheme.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
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With a graphic designer, I would be more concerned about who owns the rights to the materials they create.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
With a graphic designer, I would be more concerned about who owns the rights to the materials they create.
The work produced by an "employee" in the US falls under the work for hire provisions. As such the work belongs to the employer. No other steps need be taken. One might which to specifically document that such that one can be sure that the employee understands that and more to the point so they understand they cannot use it in any other way, shape or form (not even in portfolio without permission.) But that is just a step to minimize complications and does not represent a necessary step to insure ownership. Of course that does not apply to a contractor. But then they are not an employee.
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Hi Mike, I think that without more specifics, you can't get a more focused response to this question: consider two scenarios: 1. You hire a full-time employee for graphic design, stock options are part of their package, you provide medical benefits and other typical employee benefits. 2. You hire an employee less than full-time, or in an outside "contractor" role, for graphic design. They receive no benefits like medical-care, sick-leave, vacation pay, etc. For both designer and employer, I think there's a world of difference in these two scenarios. If you are running a software company with other people's money (venture capital, publicly listed stock, or private stock), you have some obligations as employer that may be legally much more restrictive, depending on contractual obligations. If I am a programmer with stock in a start-up, working sixty-seventy hour weeks in the prime of my life, on the wing-and-a-prayer that the company will be "cashed-out" somewhere along the line, and I see another employee I know is "moonlighting:" is that any of "my business" ? Assume you are a venture-capitalist being invited to put a substantial investment into a start-up company where there is a high-risk of failure: how would you react to the CEO telling you that company policies allow work being done off-site by employees, or outside employment ? Note, that if what your company does is primarily graphic-design related, that would involve a whole different slant on the issues involved in your hiring a designer, imho. Issues of copyright and trademark, in that case, might be more significant ? best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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BillWoodruff wrote:
Issues of copyright and trademark
In the US an employee fall under work for hire. Thus there is no question that the work that they produce for the company belongs to the company.
jschell wrote:
In the US an employee fall under work for hire. Thus there is no question that the work that they produce for the company belongs to the company.
Hi JSchell, Nothing in what I said, and in the examples given in my response, implies that the work a person does for a company does not belong to the company. The examples I talked about are based on direct experience in the software industry in the U.S. Issues do arise that are specific, even unique, to employment (and termination of employment) of graphic designers, and that do intersect with legal definitions of trademark and copyright. best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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Hi Guys, Just trying to get a feel for general opinions on what "appropriate" rules for employee freelancing are. I've never really had to worry about this too much in the past, but we are hiring a graphic designer and I want to establish reasonable freelancing guidelines. I've been unable to find very much in terms of helpful resources on the internet to assist with this. Should employees be able to freelance and essentially directly compete with your business or provide services to your competitors? There is an obvious conflict of interest there, but I'm not sure if specifying that they aren't allowed to find their own clients or do any after-hours paid work is too dictator regime-ish. Perhaps letting them freelance in areas that the company isn't focused on would be reasonable, like if you do website design, let them freelance for print design? I'm not sure where to draw the line here though, we are open to providing any services our designers are capable of providing, and we often get random requests. Employees: - What are your employer's restrictions, if any? Do you think they are reasonable? Employers: - What restrictions do you impose? Have you run into any grey-area problems before, and if so, how do you resolve them? Others: - Any general thoughts appreciated. Thanks, --Mike
In this case, it's graphic design, so why do you care who else they design for? If you're worried about your specific work created for you, then get that copy-written. Now if he was creating algorithms, or other more business dependent work, then you should consider non-competes, though, I think most would turn it down. Think, is his contract with you more important than every single potential future contract?
Craigslist Troll: litaly@comcast.net "I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson