Frustated programmers
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5fingers wrote:
Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people.
Because they don't talk honestly and openly to their managers enough, so their managers are left with having to guess at their needs. Seriously. If you're unhappy, go and talk with your manager -- don't shout about "what he did!"/"what they did!"; don't get all wired up; just say, in simple, unemotional language, "This is what makes me unhappy here" and "This is what would make me happier". People can't try to fix a problem if they don't know what the problem is. Let the dog see the rabbit.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
Because they don't talk honestly and openly to their managers enough, so their managers are left with having to guess at their needs.
Some managers have no idea how to listen to honest, open talk. And unfortunately some areas don't have a lot of other good companies to switch to.
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5fingers wrote:
Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people.
Because they don't talk honestly and openly to their managers enough, so their managers are left with having to guess at their needs. Seriously. If you're unhappy, go and talk with your manager -- don't shout about "what he did!"/"what they did!"; don't get all wired up; just say, in simple, unemotional language, "This is what makes me unhappy here" and "This is what would make me happier". People can't try to fix a problem if they don't know what the problem is. Let the dog see the rabbit.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I tried talking to my manager.. Turned into a nearly 2 hour long clear and detailed discussion of issues and suggestions of clearing up the issues.. That ended with him saying "I don't know what to tell you.. I can't do anything to change things, its just how it is." I work elsewhere now.
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
Simple! One of two reasons: First, they get into programming to make a lot of money and find out that development is hard work. They don't love development for development's sake. They don't have the passion to learn programming. They don't want to spend the 20,000 hours that it takes to become a master in any discipline. They just want the big bucks! Frustration = Hard work + no desire + non-millionaire wages; Or, second, they truly have the passion, the heart, and the desire to do development, to spend the time it takes to learn, to master software development. But they are bound by ever changing rules and regulations; clients, users, managers, etc with severe attention deficit disorder; crapware from vendors who promise the clients, users, managers the moon for free and expect the developer to make it work. When, in fact, all they want to do is write good code to accomplish something really slick, to be recognized for the time and effort that they have put into the job. Frustration = Lack of (accomplishment, recognition, praise) + excessive pressures + roadblocks; Getting off my soapbox now.
modified on Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:29 AM
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It is because we got into this industry because we want to create cool stuff and instead we make mundane changes to horrible legacy systems that just makes someone else rich. You read up on Test Driven Development only to be told that there is no business justification for it so don't do it. Then watch as some charlatan gets promoted above you. :mad:
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Because no hot girls sit beside us and listen as we explain Design Patterns.
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Steve Echols wrote:
Mark Zuckerberg (or whoever created facebook ;-)
Who do you think made Facebook?
Ooh, I know this one... umm... Al Gore?
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5fingers wrote:
Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people.
Because they don't talk honestly and openly to their managers enough, so their managers are left with having to guess at their needs. Seriously. If you're unhappy, go and talk with your manager -- don't shout about "what he did!"/"what they did!"; don't get all wired up; just say, in simple, unemotional language, "This is what makes me unhappy here" and "This is what would make me happier". People can't try to fix a problem if they don't know what the problem is. Let the dog see the rabbit.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
I dunno. Most of the managers I've had to deal with were complete bricks. They were the managers, you were the peon. Do what they say, even though they be turkeys that have read the latest management/programming fad in a magazine article and feel it must be implemented with no more understanding than what they gleamed glancing through it. And remember, if it fails, it is your fault, not theirs. I have had a few managers who were not like that, but they were rare. They treated you like an adult who knew what to do. Unfortunately they did not last long, upper management would need a scapegoat for one of their most egregious screwups and the reasonable manager would be toast. The jerko managers were never at fault. But most were on the power trip that they were the boss and you weren't. And don't be a day late on the schedule, for when the going gets tough, the tough take meetings where they nail your tongue to the tabletop and insist on knowing every inch of your failure (while not letting you finish the task, thereby increasing its lateness and your level of incompetence). Your knowledge of the task, knowledge of programming, and your genealogy will be called into question. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, but it would be preferable to the crap you will be subjected to. (Speaking from direct experience)
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
Biggest reasons are that they are immature and take themselves way too seriously. The universe has a virtually endless supply of morons. They'll be everywhere you are. Get used to it. :)
Cheers, Mike Fidler You don't have to believe everything you think.
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
- I feel that my frustration comes from not really doing what I want to but rather what someone else wants me to do. I think I'll feel much more satisfied if I were to do what I want to instead of being used where X wants to use me. 2) Sitting in front of a computer for minimum 8 hours a day is bound to get frustrating. That why I exercise on a regular basis. 3) Money 4) I feel that we constantly sit and solve problems. Solving problems is a frustrating task all together. Trial and Error is a frustrating process... Not that it is always Trial and Error, alot of times its Trial and Success. 5) Life on Lifes terms can be frustrating. 6) Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tierdness can cause frustration. 7) Overworked can cause frustration. 8) Incorrect eating habits can cause frustration/stress/tention. 9) Then a biggy, sexual frustration... a whole book on its own. 10) ++++ whatever else
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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I am not frustrated or used up thankyou. :) I still like writing complex code, never have a problem meeting deadlines, and completely understand that the customer/marketing pays my salary. I have little stress, work the hours I want, drink coffe and listen to music all day. Its creative, challenging, and gives a very quick feedback in terms of idea->implementation->satisfaction. Name one other job as good as software engineering!
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
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The nice thing about being in the kernel is that very few can do it and thus one tends to get left alone to get on with it. Managers cant pester you, they are shit scared you will leave (and it took them months to find you to rescue their product from certain death). The probelm is there isnt a lot of demand, and what there is is wide spread, so I work all over europe. Of course thats nice too, get to see lots of paces, but it gets a bit of a pain sometimes. But it pays well, doesnt change (no new technology to learn) and is interesting and very challenging (being so damned complex). Its also nice working with hardware; osciliscopes, logicanalyzers and that kind of thing. Its real engineering, not just coding.
Dr D Evans "The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s" financialpost
fat_boy wrote:
The nice thing about being in the kernel is that very few can do it and thus one tends to get left alone to get on with it. Managers cant pester you, they are sh*t scared you will leave (and it took them months to find you to rescue their product from certain death).
I'm the "kernel" developer of a large labor management system. No one else understands how any of it works. Always some interesting business-rule problem to solve. It's a little lonely at times but, as you pointed out, management is sh*t scared of you which makes it kind of a fun position to be in. -Max :D
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It is because we got into this industry because we want to create cool stuff and instead we make mundane changes to horrible legacy systems that just makes someone else rich. You read up on Test Driven Development only to be told that there is no business justification for it so don't do it. Then watch as some charlatan gets promoted above you. :mad:
davidwilde wrote:
It is because we got into this industry because we want to create cool stuff and instead we make mundane changes to horrible legacy systems that just makes someone else rich. You read up on Test Driven Development only to be told that there is no business justification for it so don't do it.
Then watch as some charlatan gets promoted above you.
:mad:OK, then go make something cool yourself, sell it and get rich. Then hire some other frustrated programmers yourself! It might take years to accomplish, but the legacy system you're "stuck" working on didn't happen overnight either. Quit yer bitchin'. Do something about it. -Max :D
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Simple! One of two reasons: First, they get into programming to make a lot of money and find out that development is hard work. They don't love development for development's sake. They don't have the passion to learn programming. They don't want to spend the 20,000 hours that it takes to become a master in any discipline. They just want the big bucks! Frustration = Hard work + no desire + non-millionaire wages; Or, second, they truly have the passion, the heart, and the desire to do development, to spend the time it takes to learn, to master software development. But they are bound by ever changing rules and regulations; clients, users, managers, etc with severe attention deficit disorder; crapware from vendors who promise the clients, users, managers the moon for free and expect the developer to make it work. When, in fact, all they want to do is write good code to accomplish something really slick, to be recognized for the time and effort that they have put into the job. Frustration = Lack of (accomplishment, recognition, praise) + excessive pressures + roadblocks; Getting off my soapbox now.
modified on Thursday, May 19, 2011 10:29 AM
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
I used to work for a company where my immediate boss played with spreadsheets and ms project and had no idea what he was doing. His boss was in another country and ignored us. His boss was one of those that reads a book about a new buzz word and shouts about making something new and pointless. All in all it wasn't great. Current job is nothing like that.
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Dear @CDP1802, I hope you don't mind if I use these two gems in my presentation. They really cracked me up, and at the same time are so true!!!
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
It's quite simple: A customer comes to you with some sort of idea. That idea isn't fully formed, and it isn't even thought out. You spend endless hours listening to them arguing amongst themselves over what their own business process is (as if they had one) with an end result of projecting expectations of you for a system that would rival Fortune 500 companies' implementation with a complete air of obliviousness to what kind of a staff it would take to produce what they want. "Microsoft did it, so it should be easy." That should be a bad joke, but that is the real life attitude they take into their endeavor (I've actually had someone say this to me). On top of all this, many of us are expected to perform at that Fortune 500 company level (being one programmer) at far shorter deadlines. Things like "Well, Exchange was created, so recreating a system that replicates it's features should take you a few weeks, right?" is all too common. Then to top off all this chaos, they want to micromanage the entire process. Taking into consideration they didn't know what they want when they went into it, this is an endless circle of ideas that often trump their previous ones. The bottom line for frustration? Non-technical people who hardly know where the power button on their PC is with grandiose get rich schemes are our daily clients (ergo "project managers"). If you are a consultant, your hardest hurdle is attempting to not get caught in scope creep which costs you dearly. Without focus or direction, their requests can be endless, and cost you a lifetime of work. The end result of this is them expressing their discontent at the project never being fully realized. So the question is not "Why are we stressed out," but rather "Why is it 'going postal' instead of 'going software engineer?'" :omg: :omg: :omg:
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
5fingers wrote:
Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people.
Long hours? Check. Deliberate attempts to keep you away from loved ones? Check. Too much responsibility and not enough authority? Check. Obsolescence in < 5 years out of school? Check. No longterm advancement path? Check. F'ing frat rat dork managers riding your 60 hour weeks to a bonus you'll never see? Check. The same managers blaming you for the lack of success of projects you begged them not to start? Check. New Microsoft API for the same old task every 5 years whether you need one or not? Check, Check. Check. And coming up on Check. About five orders of magnitude more complexity to deal with than your EE bretheren, and more than that compared to civil engineers? Check. Too many women who think you're geekiness is a liability? Oh yeah. Check. A job that forces you to think every day, "How can this fail?", while at home, they call you a pessimist for asking that question? Check. A craft with internal beauty and consistency that virtually no one can appreciate? Check. Wait until you're 40 and get to see the age discrimination? Check. Jeez, what's not to be frustrated about?
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Too true. Nobody says "Some guy went all systems analyst on the boss today. Cops were everywhere." Folks are very law abiding. Apparently the movies have lied to me. :((
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug...
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Why is it that most programmers i meet are a frustrated bunch of people. They feel cheated and used up.:confused:
I only read newbie introductory dummy books.
I am frustrated because I can see beautiful, elegant code constructs in my mind that I could build in weeks, however I am given days to accomplish these tasks. Then others complain that the result is sub-optimal.
Tanks for your support
Pat O
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<ooo> <ooo> <ooo>modified on Friday, May 20, 2011 2:14 AM
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I'm with you -- my job is great. I basically work on what I want to each day, set my own hours, and work with little mgmt oversight. I do work for the US government though... :-)
PSU Steve wrote:
I do work for the US government though... :)
... and - starting this week - get paid in currency that is worth slightly more than the currency of the Confederate States of America. :sigh: