Why Do So Many Would-be Engineers Quit?
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
I took the liesurely route -- six years, but the last one (or two?) wasn't nearly a full load. The problem was that I'm no good in those "fuzzy subjects" you mention, but they were required. I had a hard time finding ones I could pass, and my GPA suffered for it. Also, the last three years I had a full-time co-op job (writing in VAX BASIC X| ). (In my case it's software, not "real" engineering, anyway)
Roger Wright wrote:
but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked.
My father used to do that. He went to college on the GI Bill and he and the other students who had experience from their time in the service would teach the professors how things were done in the real world.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
I took five years too, also taking at least a full load and working on-campus as an Engineering Tech repairing the Electronics Dept lab equipment. One quarter I did 24 units (double load) while working - I barely survived. At that time, the EE Degree at CalPoly Pomona needed 208 units (other degrees were 180), and I graduated with 280 units. I reapplied for a CS degree (which was created in '75) with a 'secret' goal see what would happen if I went over 1000 grade points (grade * class units). In late '76 I got my 'A's and a cumulative grade point total of 1003. The computer spit out a report card with 314 units and an overall GPA of 0.00 - along with a computer generated letter letting me know I had been put on academic probation :laugh: A second letter arrived a few days later telling me I really wasn't on probation and they weren't planning on fixing the defect in the "grades" program.
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Took me 3.5 years to complete my Computer Science degree and I graduated summa cum laude. No big deal. :rolleyes: Though, I wasn't working full time (only full time over summers and part time a couple semesters)... if I had, it probably would have taken me 10 years. I hope to go back to school in a few years (when my debt's paid off... hmmm, that might be more than a few years), and I may either take things a little slower or double major (or maybe go for a graduate degree). Now that I have all the skills and experience I need, going back to college would really be more about the journey than the destination. Maybe by the time I get back, schools will be teaching how to program quantum computers (which, according to the article I saw the other day, are now for commercial sale). That's a bit exciting. :)
Roger Wright wrote:
If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer?
I have loved programming ever since I started in high school. I think that has helped me become exceptionally well qualified.
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I took five years too, also taking at least a full load and working on-campus as an Engineering Tech repairing the Electronics Dept lab equipment. One quarter I did 24 units (double load) while working - I barely survived. At that time, the EE Degree at CalPoly Pomona needed 208 units (other degrees were 180), and I graduated with 280 units. I reapplied for a CS degree (which was created in '75) with a 'secret' goal see what would happen if I went over 1000 grade points (grade * class units). In late '76 I got my 'A's and a cumulative grade point total of 1003. The computer spit out a report card with 314 units and an overall GPA of 0.00 - along with a computer generated letter letting me know I had been put on academic probation :laugh: A second letter arrived a few days later telling me I really wasn't on probation and they weren't planning on fixing the defect in the "grades" program.
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Good old Cal Poly! I started in '75 and graduated (with one of the last BSEEEs) in '80. How the hell did you survive 24 units? My normal load was 18, though some quarters I had to settle for less because the classes weren't offerred, and it damned near killed me. Their computer systems still aren't up to date, as the last time I tried to order a transcript online, my PIN was invalid - not enough digits. :-O I guess they have to go into the secret bunker under Kellogg Hill to dig out the clay tablets...
Will Rogers never met me.
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Took me 3.5 years to complete my Computer Science degree and I graduated summa cum laude. No big deal. :rolleyes: Though, I wasn't working full time (only full time over summers and part time a couple semesters)... if I had, it probably would have taken me 10 years. I hope to go back to school in a few years (when my debt's paid off... hmmm, that might be more than a few years), and I may either take things a little slower or double major (or maybe go for a graduate degree). Now that I have all the skills and experience I need, going back to college would really be more about the journey than the destination. Maybe by the time I get back, schools will be teaching how to program quantum computers (which, according to the article I saw the other day, are now for commercial sale). That's a bit exciting. :)
Roger Wright wrote:
If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer?
I have loved programming ever since I started in high school. I think that has helped me become exceptionally well qualified.
AspDotNetDev wrote:
I think that has helped me become exceptionally well qualified.
I think you're right! :-D A lot of the engineering students I met who eventually changed majors weren't really interested; they'd just heard that engineers make a lot of money (not always true). That's not enough when it comes down to making the grade. You have to love it - in any field - to excel.
Will Rogers never met me.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Did the degree in 4 years, but did started in 8th standard(grade).
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Did the degree in 4 years, but did started in 8th standard(grade).
:omg: You started college in 8th grade!? Did you just skip high school completely?
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:omg: You started college in 8th grade!? Did you just skip high school completely?
I suspect that he meant that he started preparing for the career in 8th grade, and that's consistent with what I was thinking. The trouble is that no one has any idea what they want to do for the rest of their lives in the 8th grade. Hell, I hadn't a clue after I graduated High School. I only picked Engineering because I couldn't decide among Math, Physics and Chemistry, and it was the only one that combined all three. Engineering was actually my second choice; I started out at UC Irvine with a double major of Math and Physics. Then I realized that all I had to look forward to in life was teaching other idiots like me Math and Physics. Engineering let me take all the same classes, but I got to build stuff, too. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
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:omg: You started college in 8th grade!? Did you just skip high school completely?
I started programming back then :)
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I suspect that he meant that he started preparing for the career in 8th grade, and that's consistent with what I was thinking. The trouble is that no one has any idea what they want to do for the rest of their lives in the 8th grade. Hell, I hadn't a clue after I graduated High School. I only picked Engineering because I couldn't decide among Math, Physics and Chemistry, and it was the only one that combined all three. Engineering was actually my second choice; I started out at UC Irvine with a double major of Math and Physics. Then I realized that all I had to look forward to in life was teaching other idiots like me Math and Physics. Engineering let me take all the same classes, but I got to build stuff, too. :-D
Will Rogers never met me.
I too was not career oriented that time - programming was a thing I did out of interest and curiosity. Same month I started, I got my first part time job offer to teach in that particular institute. But I denied it. ;P After 12th I started to prepare for aeronautical engineering but soon reverted back to programming as I enjoyed it more. So I can say that I am lucky enough to work in a field which I is more of a hobby for me.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
I did mine in 4 years - but there was the small matter of 7 years in the 5 year second level cycle!
Ger
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
I didn't finish high school. I WAS kicked out of home, which is why I passed year 11. I wasn't lazy, per se, I just preferred programing to school work and was undisciplined. So, I can relate to what they are saying, although I found a work ethic pretty quickly in the 'real' world, as a teenager, I probably would have dropped out, too.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I too was not career oriented that time - programming was a thing I did out of interest and curiosity. Same month I started, I got my first part time job offer to teach in that particular institute. But I denied it. ;P After 12th I started to prepare for aeronautical engineering but soon reverted back to programming as I enjoyed it more. So I can say that I am lucky enough to work in a field which I is more of a hobby for me.
Awesome! :-D I'm glad you turned down the teaching option - it would have killed the fun - though you might reconsider later in life. One of the students I knew was what we called a "lifer." He'd been there for 10 years already, and never seemed to get any closer to graduating. The school was after him to graduate so they could hire him, him being extraordinarily brilliant. But back in the '70s there were constant new products appearing, really new, not like today. Fundamentally new stuff, like PMOS, NMOS, CMOS, VFETs, etc. Steve couldn't resist ordering samples, then we wouldn't see him on campus for 3 months as he was too busy learning how each new device worked and exploring all the things one could build with it. I learned a bunch from him, but only late at night in coffee shops and diners. If he'd become a teacher at that stage in life, it would have killed his creative spirit, or he'd never show up for class. :laugh:
Will Rogers never met me.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
The work is just not for everyone I suppose. I took like 7 years with working in the meantime. I still do nothing related to the degree (Industrial Automation) but some coursework was fun, just some. I just didn't get along with the mass memorization required for most of the classes so I either aced where it was a matter of thinking or horribly failed when I had to memorize (having ADD while trying to cram and no meds is kinda fun, about 5 minutes study, 10 doing other random stuff). For some odd reason I've also always been able to focus when the teacher is decent, just like listening to a story and absorbing stories (by whatever means) is one of the few things I don't daydream out of. Been programming various stuff for 20 years now though the first couple of years was mostly drawing circles in BASIC on a Z80. Went through Basic, Pascal, ASM on DOS, VB3, Delphi, PHP and finally C++ then C. The first time I actually got interested in something related to my degree was my current job where I work really close to the hardware department and can't help but catch on some of the stuff they do (debugging is sure as hell very similar, different tools though). Our company also gets students for their graduation thesis and to be honest most are totally worthless about anything, incapable of even basic thinking let alone some decent work. The only ones that actually are good have had it in their blood since childhood or at least got into it on their own.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Reality bites !!!
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Did my BS in four years, counting a couple of summers. Did my MS in 2 years. Worked part time programming, and as a teaching assistant. But I lived at home with my folks, and didn't care for beer. Got a full-time job while finiishing up my thesis. Got married to my highschool sweetheart 3 months after starting work, and moved out of my parents' house and in with my wife with money in the bank. Wife finished her BBA (in accounting, natch) the following spring. Is that geeky or what? I was the kind of fool who went to college to get a good education, so I had way more credits than I needed to graduate. I only discovered computer science by accident, though I'd been trying to program since I was 16 (harder when you don't have a computer). In the late 1970's, in-state tuition at the University of Washington in Seattle (fanciest public college in Washington state) was $188 per quarter. It was the bargain of the century. It's like $8k nowadays.
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Did my BSCS in 3 years part-time and 3 years full time including summer sessions, and senior year coop while taking a 12 credit load. I saw many of my fellow students and friends give up on CS and EE degrees because of the hard work involved. The joke is our school was if you cannot make it in engineering, you go into physical education........
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This article on CNN asks the question[^], and UCLA contributed a study. Did it occur to them that it's Hard To DoTM? Four year degrees are great for the fuzzy subjects - a little light reading, cram and regurgitate for exams, and carefully gauge answers to agree with the teachers opinions. When the answers are all subjective, and truth is a matter of opinion, it's easy to complete the requisite units in 4 years, with plenty of time left over for developing social skills and learning to hold your liquor. When facts matter, and mastering the rudiments of how the Universe really works is important, it takes a little longer, and few have the stamina to stick it out. Maybe it would help if they started preparing us a few years earlier; the 4th grade would be about right. How long did it take you to finish your first "4 year" degree? If you finished in less than 5 years, do you feel yourself to be as well qualified to perform your job as others who took longer? I ask that last out of personal curiosity. I took 5 years to do mine, carrying a full load, working full time, and never taking a summer off. Later I hired a number of people who went to "better" schools than I, finished in the programmed 4 years, and were useless for the first 3 to 5 years on the job. They could run circles around me in talking theory and writing equations, but they couldn't design a circuit that actually worked. What's your experience?
Will Rogers never met me.
Never got an engineering degree. Got a couple of patents instead. Retired now. But ... I did take pertinent technical courses throughout my career, to keep myself on the cutting edge.