What's wrong with the ribbon control?
-
Your post just struck me as funny because if there is one fault that MS has had over the years it's constantly trying to be everything to everyone resulting in many ills not least of which are hugely bloated OS's with giant amounts of backward compatibility code all in an effort to not be like Apple all autocratic and dictatorial and telling people how they must use their software. I dislike the ribbon but I think it would be extremely difficult to provide both UI's for many reasons that go way beyond the code itself like support, marketing, training etc etc. People vent a lot about Microsoft but this seems like such a minor reason to, they are actually trying to do better with a researched UI that has been provably easier and preferred by new users. As much as we experienced users may hate it it's not a plot to piss us all off it's an attempt to do better. (I swear if Microsoft walked on water people would bitch about how they clearly don't know how to swim.) :)
There is no failure only feedback
My point is there isn't a single set-up that will satisfy the majority of users, so why not offer a number of possibilities and give the user a choice. That is what happens in modern software, see some of the recent browsers: they have menus, toolbars (with small or big icons, with or without text, etc), and everything, and you can switch most if not all of them on and off any way you like. One extreme setting would be to turn everything on, which probably is fine and works comfortably provided your monitor is big enough; the other extreme is switching everything off except for the one thing you prefer, be it the classic menu bar, or some tool bar. Browsers nowadays go a long way to save screen real-estate, allowing the user to see as much as possible of the web page. And I raise a similar point about functionality. Over the years, Windows itself has been dumbed down, probably to avoid confusion for non-technical users. The right approach IMO is to offer two or more modes, where one would be the current, dumb, offering; and another would be the we-show-and-tell-it-all mode. Case in point is disk defragmentation: it used to be well explained, displayed graphically, and cancellable; nowadays it is just a button you can click, and then wait (it also no longer moves the files to one side of the partition!). :)
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
The quality and detail of your question reflects on the effectiveness of the help you are likely to get.
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they improve readability.
CP Vanity has been updated to V2.3 -
My point is there isn't a single set-up that will satisfy the majority of users, so why not offer a number of possibilities and give the user a choice. That is what happens in modern software, see some of the recent browsers: they have menus, toolbars (with small or big icons, with or without text, etc), and everything, and you can switch most if not all of them on and off any way you like. One extreme setting would be to turn everything on, which probably is fine and works comfortably provided your monitor is big enough; the other extreme is switching everything off except for the one thing you prefer, be it the classic menu bar, or some tool bar. Browsers nowadays go a long way to save screen real-estate, allowing the user to see as much as possible of the web page. And I raise a similar point about functionality. Over the years, Windows itself has been dumbed down, probably to avoid confusion for non-technical users. The right approach IMO is to offer two or more modes, where one would be the current, dumb, offering; and another would be the we-show-and-tell-it-all mode. Case in point is disk defragmentation: it used to be well explained, displayed graphically, and cancellable; nowadays it is just a button you can click, and then wait (it also no longer moves the files to one side of the partition!). :)
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
The quality and detail of your question reflects on the effectiveness of the help you are likely to get.
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they improve readability.
CP Vanity has been updated to V2.3I know what you mean and as a long time computer user and developer my instincts are the same as yours but it's a terrible habit I've tried hard to break over recent years. The fact is that computer interfaces have grown up tremendously in just the last few years and pc's are falling behind rapidly in that department. Your perspective is informed by knowing the inner workings of what is going on and being interested in it and understanding it from that perspective. It's absolutely not what a new or even the average computer user wants. They want to accomplish a *task* as quickly and easily as possible and they don't under any circumstances want to have to think about how the computer works internally. The only failure in the disk defrag example is that it exists in the first place. Users don't want to have to think about defragging or ever do it. Instead of changing the interface they should have eliminated the need for it entirely. Can you imagine having to defrag your cell phone or your car navigation system? You don't make great software by including endless configuration and customization opportunities, you make great software by taking the time to plan and design and test a great (as in as simple as possible) task oriented interface that takes away the need to even have all those customizations, then you enforce it strictly giving options only where there is absolutely no other way to accomplish the task at hand. Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for mediocrity every time, just look at the modern mainstream tv, music or film industry. They are doing what you advocate and churning out mountains of poor quality middle of the road shit as a result.
There is no failure only feedback
-
I get the impression that quite a few developers here are not impressed with the ribbon concept. If so, what's the main gripe with it? We use the DevExpress ribbon in our apps and it's relatively painless to use and easy to write code for. Perhaps there is a serious flaw with ribbon concepts but out-of-the-box it works, it looks quite nice so why are some folk upset with it?
My problem with it is that, when the window width changes, some of the items move around, and look different. sometimes the text disappears to make room for more controls, or the controls get repositioned somehow so that more of them show up on the screen. although it seems that this would be good, because you have access to more of the controls in a smaller space, the problem is that they're harder to find. Visually, you look for certain controls on the screen because of the way they looked and where they are positions. When that changes, it's kind of like the controls in the cockpit of an airplane moving around on you. Things aren't where you'd expect to be, and it's confusing.
-
I know what you mean and as a long time computer user and developer my instincts are the same as yours but it's a terrible habit I've tried hard to break over recent years. The fact is that computer interfaces have grown up tremendously in just the last few years and pc's are falling behind rapidly in that department. Your perspective is informed by knowing the inner workings of what is going on and being interested in it and understanding it from that perspective. It's absolutely not what a new or even the average computer user wants. They want to accomplish a *task* as quickly and easily as possible and they don't under any circumstances want to have to think about how the computer works internally. The only failure in the disk defrag example is that it exists in the first place. Users don't want to have to think about defragging or ever do it. Instead of changing the interface they should have eliminated the need for it entirely. Can you imagine having to defrag your cell phone or your car navigation system? You don't make great software by including endless configuration and customization opportunities, you make great software by taking the time to plan and design and test a great (as in as simple as possible) task oriented interface that takes away the need to even have all those customizations, then you enforce it strictly giving options only where there is absolutely no other way to accomplish the task at hand. Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for mediocrity every time, just look at the modern mainstream tv, music or film industry. They are doing what you advocate and churning out mountains of poor quality middle of the road shit as a result.
There is no failure only feedback
I can see your point. For simple appiances, the dont-know-dont-care approach is doable, even maybe for tablet computers. For more complex machinery, netbooks, laptops, computers, we aren't there yet, and moving half distance is very bad IMO.
John C wrote:
Your perspective is informed by knowing the inner workings
I'm willing to forget about the inner workings of my computer and see it as just another utensil, but then I don't want to know about backup, about anti-virus, about monthly updates, etc etc. One would hope a computer becomes as simple as a fridge, unfortunately most of the time things move the other way around. The next fridge will want Internet access, my latest television set has needed four software updates already, etc.
John C wrote:
Can you imagine having to defrag your cell phone
The modern solution seems to be to throw it away when the data plan expires. Is that progress?
John C wrote:
Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for mediocrity every time, just look at the modern mainstream tv
In Belgium the public broadcast, as well as the commercial tele companies, each have a number of channels. And that means: the user can choose. Which is my point, they offer a choice, I choose. :)
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
The quality and detail of your question reflects on the effectiveness of the help you are likely to get.
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they improve readability.
CP Vanity has been updated to V2.3 -
I get the impression that quite a few developers here are not impressed with the ribbon concept. If so, what's the main gripe with it? We use the DevExpress ribbon in our apps and it's relatively painless to use and easy to write code for. Perhaps there is a serious flaw with ribbon concepts but out-of-the-box it works, it looks quite nice so why are some folk upset with it?
-
I get the impression that quite a few developers here are not impressed with the ribbon concept. If so, what's the main gripe with it? We use the DevExpress ribbon in our apps and it's relatively painless to use and easy to write code for. Perhaps there is a serious flaw with ribbon concepts but out-of-the-box it works, it looks quite nice so why are some folk upset with it?
The problem with the ribbon is that, with regard to people using computers for more than a decade, the toolbar and the menu bar concepts have been the only thing available. It is what we had to learn and, IMHO, far simpler to use by comparison. Ribbons (and especially the MS Office ribbons) are far too busy and useless to those of us who have memorized the location of the menu item or toolbar icon required to accomplish a particular task. As a member of the "using computers for 3 decades" club, the ribbon concept has required a brain-reboot of sorts. I can rarely find anything in seconds. It's more like minutes. Or I have to call somebody. And it's not because it isn't right there in front of me; it's more like there's so much junk around what I need and I simply can't see it. Choice would have been a good thing. Give me back my menu and my toolbar. :mad:
-
I get the impression that quite a few developers here are not impressed with the ribbon concept. If so, what's the main gripe with it? We use the DevExpress ribbon in our apps and it's relatively painless to use and easy to write code for. Perhaps there is a serious flaw with ribbon concepts but out-of-the-box it works, it looks quite nice so why are some folk upset with it?
I don't hate it, but it has two failings to my mind. The first (and easiest to get over) is that it takes up more screen space than the old toolsbars used to (if you didn't have them ALL visible at once), and the screen space lost is vertical. On many modern laptops with wide screens etc. the vertical space is at a premium. The second problem, and the bigger one, is that now I have to switch between tabs (on the ribbon) to get to the toolbar buttons and controls that I want. It used to be I just had the common toolbars visible and everything I wanted was a movement and a click away. Now it's move to the tab, click the tab, move to the control you want, click the control, then return to the previous tab for some other option. I really should learn the keyboard shortcuts I guess - but that will only help me, and not other users I see struggling with the same thing. It's not a matter of finding an option, after a while you learn where they are, it's the extra clicking and moving the mouse around the screen that annoys me. I know that very few people ever customised the old toolbars (probably why the ribbon doesn't let you), and in fact I seldom did either, but with the ribbon I actually *want* to customise it. However (with the Office version anyway) there is no favourites tab, or the ability to move all the stuff you use commonly to one place. If they added a favourites tab or the ability to customise the existing tabs, then the whole thing would be great.
-
I used to use Styles all the time because they were so easy to use and absolutely consistent. For the most part I've gone back to simply formatting things myself because I haven't taken the time to figure them out.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx
What is there to figure out? Styles used to be relatively hidden. I don't know any novice users that discovered styles on their own before the ribbon, but with it all styles are on the home tab. If you want to change the styleset, you can just select one from the dropdown, or assign your own styles from the selection without opening another window. I really don't understand why people are so affronted by the ribbon. All it does is place commands in a more logical arrangement, and that's coming from someone who knew the big Office apps inside-out before the switch. If anything, I know them even better now. As a software developer, I can appreciate that users don't want an interface they've been using for a long time suddenly turned on its end, but seriously, the UI before the ribbon was incredibly arbitrary in its arrangement, and the ribbon is cleaner in almost every way. It's not like it takes any time at all to adapt to it. All of the keyboard shortcuts from earlier versions still work too, even the alt- menu shortcuts (although they also have new mappings). As a matter of philosophy, I consider being able to adapt to such changes (especially for the better) without a hiccup a prerequisite of working in this industry, and certainly of being an engineer/developer/creative person. I also find that the people who were most angered by the change were those who didn't really have a good working mental model of the programs to begin with. The Office ribbon is much more in-line with how they were designed to be used. That aside, I don't consider the ribbon to be much different from old fashioned toolbars. The idea of licensing Fluent is crazy and the idea that the licensing requirement would hold up in court is ludicrous. The big jump was simply Microsoft's step to making toolbars do the work of arranging themselves for you. The toolbars did some of that before, but they were also smaller, harder to see/find, and would often jump around. The ribbon sizes buttons based on their importance and arranges them based on their use. Cheers!
-
I used to use Styles all the time because they were so easy to use and absolutely consistent. For the most part I've gone back to simply formatting things myself because I haven't taken the time to figure them out.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -- Groucho Marx
The answer is simple - take the time (it really isn't much time in practice). When you do, you will be startled how much easier to use styles have become. I have been using Word since its DOS days and the ribbon interface is the most polished. When I go back to an earlier version for any reason, the toolbar seems very clunky and inefficient. Just think, when the original toolbar first appeared in Word, I disliked it for a while because I, foolishly, so wanted to do things the old way!
-
>> Why not keep both options menus + toolbars along ribbon and allow switching? :thumbsup: I assume you meant one or the other... gawd not both at the same time :thumbsdown:. But yeah, allowing the *user* to choose what they want, what they find most productive would be the way to go. What a concept! Prior to the missus going back to school, we both had Office 2003 installed on our laptops. I still do and I *refuse* to "upgrade", and I use that word quite loosely. Her homework assignments where downloaded off the MTSU website and were in .docx format. The first time she tried open one of those files, she went into a panic. Realizing what the problem was, I uninstalled Office 2003 and installed Office 2007. Now, every few minutes I minutes I'm being asked, "Where is the fill_in_the_blank icon?". She's slowly coming up to speed w/ the interface, but it's not been easy. Whoever came up this ribbon idea should have tied it around their dangles and hung :omg:
modified on Monday, May 30, 2011 10:35 AM
-
I'm particularly unimpressed by Microsoft making choices for us. If they develop new technology, why not offer both and let the user choose. Some will prefer the new ribbon, some will continue to use the menus, and then some may use one or the other depending on the kind of work and/or the screen size they are currently facing. Alas, MS think they know best, and they often/sometimes/occasionally (pick one) are wrong... :)
Luc Pattyn [My Articles] Nil Volentibus Arduum
The quality and detail of your question reflects on the effectiveness of the help you are likely to get.
Please use <PRE> tags for code snippets, they improve readability.
CP Vanity has been updated to V2.3You are a developer, you should know the cost of choice.
FILETIME to time_t
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | WhoIncludes - Analyzing C++ include file hierarchy -
Most of my users use Word to edit pre-existing documents and use my Addin which appears as a menu item next to the "View" menu item and a small subset of the formating toolbars (Font/Bold,Centre and a few others). Under Word < 2007 all the fuctions the user ever used were available on the one screen, no addition clicks required. Now with the ribbon they must click on the AddIn ribbon to get to our feature and then they lose all their formating functions. Anytime they want to do some minor formatting they must find the right ribbon and select it and find the required function. THE RIBBON INTERFACE MIGHT BE GOOD FOR NEWIES, BUT ONCE THEY BECOME PROFICIENT IT IS COMBERSUM.
Are you aware it's possible to customise the entries on the ribbon? Right Click > Customise Ribbon Oh, and
Member 3717204 wrote:
COMBERSUM
That would be 'cumbersome'. [/language-nit-pick] :)
Don't forget to rate my post if it helped! ;) "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends." "His mother should have thrown him away, and kept the stork." "There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure." "He loves nature, in spite of what it did to him."
-
What is there to figure out? Styles used to be relatively hidden. I don't know any novice users that discovered styles on their own before the ribbon, but with it all styles are on the home tab. If you want to change the styleset, you can just select one from the dropdown, or assign your own styles from the selection without opening another window. I really don't understand why people are so affronted by the ribbon. All it does is place commands in a more logical arrangement, and that's coming from someone who knew the big Office apps inside-out before the switch. If anything, I know them even better now. As a software developer, I can appreciate that users don't want an interface they've been using for a long time suddenly turned on its end, but seriously, the UI before the ribbon was incredibly arbitrary in its arrangement, and the ribbon is cleaner in almost every way. It's not like it takes any time at all to adapt to it. All of the keyboard shortcuts from earlier versions still work too, even the alt- menu shortcuts (although they also have new mappings). As a matter of philosophy, I consider being able to adapt to such changes (especially for the better) without a hiccup a prerequisite of working in this industry, and certainly of being an engineer/developer/creative person. I also find that the people who were most angered by the change were those who didn't really have a good working mental model of the programs to begin with. The Office ribbon is much more in-line with how they were designed to be used. That aside, I don't consider the ribbon to be much different from old fashioned toolbars. The idea of licensing Fluent is crazy and the idea that the licensing requirement would hold up in court is ludicrous. The big jump was simply Microsoft's step to making toolbars do the work of arranging themselves for you. The toolbars did some of that before, but they were also smaller, harder to see/find, and would often jump around. The ribbon sizes buttons based on their importance and arranges them based on their use. Cheers!
Z-Human wrote:
All of the keyboard shortcuts from earlier versions still work too, even the alt- menu shortcuts (although they also have new mappings).
I really got used to using Alt and the first & maybe second key shortcuts, for then you'd see the menu displayed to the point where you could easily see the next shortcut key. Now, if you don't know the final key to press, after the first or second keystroke the ribbon simply informs you that it's wating for the next keystroke. For example, in Excel, inserting a series of values requires Alt-E, I, S. Try just Alt-E, I. You get a message to type the next letter or hit Escape. So, if you don't know it (the next keystroke), you're out of luck and HAVE to use the ribbon. So, it really forces me to use the mouse much more than Office 2003 and earlier did.
-
That's just silly. Everyone knows you have to have a dual-abacus setup for maximum developer productivity.
Best wishes, Hans
Don't forget the floating bead co-processor(s) :)
-
I know what you mean and as a long time computer user and developer my instincts are the same as yours but it's a terrible habit I've tried hard to break over recent years. The fact is that computer interfaces have grown up tremendously in just the last few years and pc's are falling behind rapidly in that department. Your perspective is informed by knowing the inner workings of what is going on and being interested in it and understanding it from that perspective. It's absolutely not what a new or even the average computer user wants. They want to accomplish a *task* as quickly and easily as possible and they don't under any circumstances want to have to think about how the computer works internally. The only failure in the disk defrag example is that it exists in the first place. Users don't want to have to think about defragging or ever do it. Instead of changing the interface they should have eliminated the need for it entirely. Can you imagine having to defrag your cell phone or your car navigation system? You don't make great software by including endless configuration and customization opportunities, you make great software by taking the time to plan and design and test a great (as in as simple as possible) task oriented interface that takes away the need to even have all those customizations, then you enforce it strictly giving options only where there is absolutely no other way to accomplish the task at hand. Trying to appease everyone is a recipe for mediocrity every time, just look at the modern mainstream tv, music or film industry. They are doing what you advocate and churning out mountains of poor quality middle of the road shit as a result.
There is no failure only feedback
John C wrote:
You don't make great software by including endless configuration and customization opportunities, you make great software by taking the time to plan and design and test a great (as in as simple as possible) task oriented interface that takes away the need to even have all those customizations, then you enforce it strictly giving options only where there is absolutely no other way to accomplish the task at hand.
Isn't that the iPhone? And let's face it, it works, and people love it. (yes, I know the iPhone isn't software, but iOS is and so are all those thousands of apps that follow the strict guidelines defined and enforced by Apple)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
-
bob16972 wrote:
Was the concept "broke" somehow?
If it isn't broken, fix it until it is ;P
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
-
John C wrote:
You don't make great software by including endless configuration and customization opportunities, you make great software by taking the time to plan and design and test a great (as in as simple as possible) task oriented interface that takes away the need to even have all those customizations, then you enforce it strictly giving options only where there is absolutely no other way to accomplish the task at hand.
Isn't that the iPhone? And let's face it, it works, and people love it. (yes, I know the iPhone isn't software, but iOS is and so are all those thousands of apps that follow the strict guidelines defined and enforced by Apple)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
-
My problem with it is that, when the window width changes, some of the items move around, and look different. sometimes the text disappears to make room for more controls, or the controls get repositioned somehow so that more of them show up on the screen. although it seems that this would be good, because you have access to more of the controls in a smaller space, the problem is that they're harder to find. Visually, you look for certain controls on the screen because of the way they looked and where they are positions. When that changes, it's kind of like the controls in the cockpit of an airplane moving around on you. Things aren't where you'd expect to be, and it's confusing.
That is an *excellent* argument against the ribbon that I didn't know about before because I've yet to use an app that uses it heavily. I didn't know they did that. That is unforgivable from a UI perspective. Perhaps they bank on people normally working at a set resolution / size.
There is no failure only feedback
-
Are you aware it's possible to customise the entries on the ribbon? Right Click > Customise Ribbon Oh, and
Member 3717204 wrote:
COMBERSUM
That would be 'cumbersome'. [/language-nit-pick] :)
Don't forget to rate my post if it helped! ;) "He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends." "His mother should have thrown him away, and kept the stork." "There's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure." "He loves nature, in spite of what it did to him."
dawmail333 wrote:
Are you aware it's possible to customise the entries on the ribbon? Right Click > Customise Ribbon
- You can't customise the AddIn Ribbon Tab 2) You can't add an AddIn to an existing Ribbon. 3) I did mention they were Users not Developers.
-
I get the impression that quite a few developers here are not impressed with the ribbon concept. If so, what's the main gripe with it? We use the DevExpress ribbon in our apps and it's relatively painless to use and easy to write code for. Perhaps there is a serious flaw with ribbon concepts but out-of-the-box it works, it looks quite nice so why are some folk upset with it?
I often used to add custom buttons to the toolbars in Office applications to make commands that are buried (or not at all) in the menus more accessible. In the old-style toolbars, you could add a button, give it an icon or copy and paste a button icon from another button in the toolbars. You could even edit your own icons. All this functionality is gone from the ribbons, and I miss it. :(
____-=< |>@\/ΓΈ!c| >=-____
`````````_`````_`````````
```````o/ \^w^/ \o```````
``````````(o o)``````````
------ooO--(_)--Ooo------
I'm not a complete idiot;
bits of me are missing.
-><-