Uh oh, if the Germans get pissed of enough its the end of the Euro.
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And Norway is not a part of the EU on top of it. But if there is a reasonable criteria for “stability” why not use them? For example what percentage from the GDP is country’s external debt, political stability, deficit etc? Mind you that a relatively not very reach country could be rock stable and a very rich country could be a complete unpredictable mess ready to fall apart.
There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
But if there is a reasonable criteria for “stability” why not use them?
So which countries in the EU have not had major riots in the last five years?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Once all the Germans were warlike and mean, But that couldn't happen again. We taught them a lesson in nineteen eighteen, And they've hardly bothered us since then.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
Wow, that takes me back, the MLF Lullaby. Possibly we would now be more concerned that Turkey was part of the Multi-Lateral Force: We have the weapons our foes to panic, And one of the fingers on the button is Islamic perhaps. (Apologies to Mr Lehrer.)
ict558 - a Coward and a Fool. Dalek Dave & Hokum (Therefore it must be so, alas.)
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And Norway is not a part of the EU on top of it. But if there is a reasonable criteria for “stability” why not use them? For example what percentage from the GDP is country’s external debt, political stability, deficit etc? Mind you that a relatively not very reach country could be rock stable and a very rich country could be a complete unpredictable mess ready to fall apart.
There is only one Ashley Judd and Salma Hayek is her prophet! Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
what percentage from the GDP is country’s external debt, political stability, deficit etc?
At the moment, normal rules don't apply. When the worldwide financial crisis is history, and that may take some years, then you can apply certain stability requirements, until then, it is a meaningless measure.
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
what percentage from the GDP is country’s external debt, political stability, deficit etc?
At the moment, normal rules don't apply. When the worldwide financial crisis is history, and that may take some years, then you can apply certain stability requirements, until then, it is a meaningless measure.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
When the worldwide financial crisis is history, and that may take some years
25, 50, 100? Richard, what makes you think that the present situation isn't the new normal?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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fat__boy wrote:
Countries needed to have shown 20 years of stability and financial maturity before joining.
That lets out everyone but Norway doesn't it?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Untill the oil runs out..
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
But if there is a reasonable criteria for “stability” why not use them?
So which countries in the EU have not had major riots in the last five years?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Sweeden, Czech republic, Spain, Portgual, Ireland, Malta, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Hungary and Slovenia? :)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Deyan Georgiev wrote:
what percentage from the GDP is country’s external debt, political stability, deficit etc?
At the moment, normal rules don't apply. When the worldwide financial crisis is history, and that may take some years, then you can apply certain stability requirements, until then, it is a meaningless measure.
Yes, unfortunately. Whats utterly mind blwingly shocking is that the market/government did not see their actions over the last 10 years as leading to instability. Every single fucking bibble has popped painfully, and they collectively let the crdit bubble get to the size where its popping very nearly destroyed the western world. Greed and stupidity very nearly acchieved what communism couldnt. :)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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You know aftre the first world war they had to pay 99 million dollars, in gold, to FRance. This pretty much created the ecconomiv ruin in Germany in the 1920s and led to the rise of Faschism. I fear that by brutalising Germany again today, it will encourage the rise of the extreme right. (And the fact the extreme right is on the rise in Europe in general, probably because the Government wont tackle Islamicisation and Immigration, is only gong to make it easier.)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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German anger over the second Greek bailout shows no sign of disappearing[^] And this is the crux "Bild, which sells 3m copies daily, said that Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others" Germany is paying reparations for the second world war. It is the only profitable working country in Europe which by being shackled to the EU is supporting all the rest. When the Germans finaly get pissed off about having to feel so guilty, or forget the past and match the rise of the far right as elsewhere in Europe then expect a very strong sentiment for Germany to exit the Euro, and it to then collapse.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
fat__boy wrote:
Germany is paying reparations for the second world war. It is the only profitable working country in Europe which by being shackled to the EU is supporting all the rest.
No they are shackled to it because they wanted the Euro. They pushed for it, because they thought it would benefit them. Now it has gone pear-shaped, they have to pay the consequenses. If it had been a success they would have reaped the benefits. Or do you think Greece and thr rest of Europe forced them too ditch the Mark? Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
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fat__boy wrote:
Countries needed to have shown 20 years of stability and financial maturity before joining.
That lets out everyone but Norway doesn't it?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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fat__boy wrote:
Germany is paying reparations for the second world war. It is the only profitable working country in Europe which by being shackled to the EU is supporting all the rest.
No they are shackled to it because they wanted the Euro. They pushed for it, because they thought it would benefit them. Now it has gone pear-shaped, they have to pay the consequenses. If it had been a success they would have reaped the benefits. Or do you think Greece and thr rest of Europe forced them too ditch the Mark? Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks, it is because they have the largest economy at this moment in time, if France was doing as well as Germany are, they too will be expected to dig deep.
Ᵽompey wrote:
No they are shackled to it because they wanted the Euro.
Got any proof of that assertion?
Ᵽompey wrote:
They pushed for it, because they thought it would benefit them.
So they thought tying their currency to the Greek economy was good for them? Masochists are they?
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks,
I will repeat what the Bild said: "Bild, which sells 3m copies daily, said that Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others"
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Ᵽompey wrote:
No they are shackled to it because they wanted the Euro.
Got any proof of that assertion?
Ᵽompey wrote:
They pushed for it, because they thought it would benefit them.
So they thought tying their currency to the Greek economy was good for them? Masochists are they?
Ᵽompey wrote:
Saying that Germany has too foot the Bill because of WW2 is utter Bollocks,
I will repeat what the Bild said: "Bild, which sells 3m copies daily, said that Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others"
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
fat__boy wrote:
So they thought tying their currency to the Greek economy was good for them? Masochists are they?
They envisaged that a European currency had the potential to be the strongest in the world, and under different circumstances, and without the Credit Crunch, it may have been. You have the benefit of hindsight, that Greece is going to collapse, nobody knew this when the Euro was in its infancy. It is common knowledge that it was Germany and France who were the main driving force behind it, they gambled and it looks like they lost. The UK decided to sit it out and see if it succeeded first before dropping the pound. This would have put us in a poor negotiating posistion when we did decide to join the Euro. Are you really trying to say Germany was forced into ditching the Mark in favour of the Euro? If so who forced them and why was Britain allowed to sit out and wait and see how it performed before deciding to join?
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fat__boy wrote:
So they thought tying their currency to the Greek economy was good for them? Masochists are they?
They envisaged that a European currency had the potential to be the strongest in the world, and under different circumstances, and without the Credit Crunch, it may have been. You have the benefit of hindsight, that Greece is going to collapse, nobody knew this when the Euro was in its infancy. It is common knowledge that it was Germany and France who were the main driving force behind it, they gambled and it looks like they lost. The UK decided to sit it out and see if it succeeded first before dropping the pound. This would have put us in a poor negotiating posistion when we did decide to join the Euro. Are you really trying to say Germany was forced into ditching the Mark in favour of the Euro? If so who forced them and why was Britain allowed to sit out and wait and see how it performed before deciding to join?
Germany has been paying for the CAP, which benefited France at Germanys expense, since the inception of the EU. The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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Germany has been paying for the CAP, which benefited France at Germanys expense, since the inception of the EU. The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
That doesn't answer the question. Was Germany forced into the Euro against its will, or did it join freely in the knowledge that if the Euro succeeded, it would benefit greatly but if it failed, it would be one of the biggest losers. Afterall when it comes to gambling, which is essentially what it did by ditching a perfectly good Mark for the unproven Euro, the one with the biggest stake has the most to lose, aswell as the most to gain. To link it to what happened 70 years ago is ludicrous.
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Germany has been paying for the CAP, which benefited France at Germanys expense, since the inception of the EU. The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was.
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
fat__boy wrote:
The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was
That's bullshit, and you probably know it. The EU was supposed to be all about creating so many economic ties between the major nation states that it was impossible for any of them to start any kind of major conflict again as they could be financially strangled very simply. The EU in it's current form has gone away from that to some major degree and, as others have said, Germany and France, (largely), gambled on the ability of the Euro to become the most significant common currency available. They poked, pushed, persuaded and cajoled others into going along and unfortunately with the global economic downturn it appears they gambled and lost. However, given the size of their economies they have greater power to protect their electorate from the negative effects of this unlike countries such as Greece and Ireland. Quite frankly the article is just a case of minor xenophobia, (its the bloody foreigners fault!), much as is more often seen in the UK, and France. It's a means of picking anexternal scapegoat simply to protect a political party of choice and much of the comment merits about as much as the many, many wonderfully appalling articles printed in the Daily Mail in the UK in recent years.
Rhys "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"
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fat__boy wrote:
The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was
That's bullshit, and you probably know it. The EU was supposed to be all about creating so many economic ties between the major nation states that it was impossible for any of them to start any kind of major conflict again as they could be financially strangled very simply. The EU in it's current form has gone away from that to some major degree and, as others have said, Germany and France, (largely), gambled on the ability of the Euro to become the most significant common currency available. They poked, pushed, persuaded and cajoled others into going along and unfortunately with the global economic downturn it appears they gambled and lost. However, given the size of their economies they have greater power to protect their electorate from the negative effects of this unlike countries such as Greece and Ireland. Quite frankly the article is just a case of minor xenophobia, (its the bloody foreigners fault!), much as is more often seen in the UK, and France. It's a means of picking anexternal scapegoat simply to protect a political party of choice and much of the comment merits about as much as the many, many wonderfully appalling articles printed in the Daily Mail in the UK in recent years.
Rhys "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"
goblinTech wrote:
They poked, pushed, persuaded and cajoled others into going along
From this side of the puddle it appeared that country after country begged and pleaded to be allowed to use the Euro, except, of course, for Switzerland and the UK. Are you saying that Germany and France encouraged the PIIGS to spend wildly, in excess of the agreements they made when they joined the EU, by promising to bail them out?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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fat__boy wrote:
The EU is all about Germany paying, it always was
That's bullshit, and you probably know it. The EU was supposed to be all about creating so many economic ties between the major nation states that it was impossible for any of them to start any kind of major conflict again as they could be financially strangled very simply. The EU in it's current form has gone away from that to some major degree and, as others have said, Germany and France, (largely), gambled on the ability of the Euro to become the most significant common currency available. They poked, pushed, persuaded and cajoled others into going along and unfortunately with the global economic downturn it appears they gambled and lost. However, given the size of their economies they have greater power to protect their electorate from the negative effects of this unlike countries such as Greece and Ireland. Quite frankly the article is just a case of minor xenophobia, (its the bloody foreigners fault!), much as is more often seen in the UK, and France. It's a means of picking anexternal scapegoat simply to protect a political party of choice and much of the comment merits about as much as the many, many wonderfully appalling articles printed in the Daily Mail in the UK in recent years.
Rhys "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees"
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goblinTech wrote:
They poked, pushed, persuaded and cajoled others into going along
From this side of the puddle it appeared that country after country begged and pleaded to be allowed to use the Euro, except, of course, for Switzerland and the UK. Are you saying that Germany and France encouraged the PIIGS to spend wildly, in excess of the agreements they made when they joined the EU, by promising to bail them out?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
Are you saying that Germany and France encouraged the PIIGS to spend wildly
He said nothing of the sort and you know it. He just pointed out that it was a gamble, they knew before they adopted the Euro the risks, they also knew what they stood to gain. Every possible eventuality would have been assessed and evaluated and they decided it was worth the risk, and if it wasn't for the Credit Crunch, it probably would have been. The more countries that took it up from the start, the more chance it had of success (remember these were prosperous times). I know they really wanted the UK to be in from the start. When he says they pushed and cajouled countries into going along, you know he means, joining it from the start and making sure their markets met the criteria, in order to give it the best chance of maturing. To beleive a German papers whine, that it is all to do with punishing Germanys past, reminds me of when people play the 'its only because I'm black card.'
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Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Austria, Sweeden, Czech republic, Spain, Portgual, Ireland, Malta, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Hungary and Slovenia? :)
"The whole idea that carbon dioxide is the main cause of the recent global warming is based on a guess that was proved false by empirical evidence during the 1990s." climate-models-go-cold
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That doesn't answer the question. Was Germany forced into the Euro against its will, or did it join freely in the knowledge that if the Euro succeeded, it would benefit greatly but if it failed, it would be one of the biggest losers. Afterall when it comes to gambling, which is essentially what it did by ditching a perfectly good Mark for the unproven Euro, the one with the biggest stake has the most to lose, aswell as the most to gain. To link it to what happened 70 years ago is ludicrous.
What do you think this statement means: "Germany is was always the "scapegoat" when the IMF and EU are were looking for more money. Germany's "dark past" played a special role in this case as in many others" The dark past being refered to here is 70 years ago. The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction ever happening...Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. [^] The very essence of the EU, and hence the Euro are beased on events 70 years ago. Now, as for Germany paying. It has always been a net contributor to the EU, with France receiving the most benefit through the Common Agricultural Policy. This is in part what the Bild alludes to when it says Germany has always been the scapegoat when the EU wanted money. The CAP is often explained[3] as the result of a political compromise between France and Germany: German industry would have access to the French market; in exchange, Germany would help pay for France's farmers. Germany is still the largest net contributor into the EU budget[^] So can you see how through a system of trade Germany has been made to pay over the decades for its "dark past" in a way it was after the First World War but without the same devastating impact of those reparations. Did the Germans want the euro? Here is some interesting background: France and the UK were opposed to German reunification, and attempted to influence the Soviet Union to stop it.[7] However, in late 1989 France extracted German commitment to the Monetary Union in return for support for German reunification.[8]...Germany was cautious about giving up its stable currency...However Germany had opposed previous moves to strengthen the euro group[^] Interesting eh? <