Creationism... again.
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Can religious teachings prove evolution to be true?[^] Interesting article with some of the comments even more interesting. In particular I enjoyed this snippet from one Oliver Elphick. "On the basis of my experience of God, on the evidence of the evident supernatural authorship of the bible, on the word of Jesus that authenticates it and on the verification of his claim to be God by his resurrection, I have ample evidence to believe that God is absolutely trustworthy and that his word is true. It follows then that his account of creation is true; since it contradicts the story of evolution, that must be false." You have to laugh at the mind-boggling ignorance of such drivel. He cites fantasy as evidence and then uses that evidence to argue that the rest of his evidence is true and things for which there is real evidence are false. He has ample evidence? "on the verification of his claim to be God by his resurrection" You what? What verification? There isn't even any evidence that JayCee ever existed never mind managed to die and then come back 3 days later. Thank god I'm an atheist. :)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
I'm going to throw the 'Liberal Christian' take into this. I believe the Bible, it is a very good analogy of early world history. Take Genesis 1, there was nothing, then light [big bang], the earth formed, land and sea separated [forming the continents], all the plants and animals, and finally man. It did happen that way, just not in seven days. All these numpty dumpties forget that Darwin was a clergyman before being a scientist. There is no conflict, for me at least, between biblical teaching and scientific fact. FFS half the breakthroughs used to question religion where made by very religious people. [No I can't be fraked to list any more] Take the religion out of what the Bible, or Koran for that matter, teaches and it's good common sense with a strong moral overtone of looking after everyone. Just my penny's worth.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I have joined the rank of the Neo-Atheists. We don't just not believe, we actively denigrate and fight against any form of religiousism. We laugh at the stupidity of believers, take objection to anything that obligates us to any form of religious observance and pour scorn upon unnatural or immoral acts that are carried out in the name of a etherial sky pixie.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Yeah, I know, Dave... I want to move in that direction, but I force myself not to. I have friends who are religious (My best friend still goes to church every Sunday)... There's just an unspoken arrangement that we don't discuss their religion or my lack thereof... Granted, if they started basing their life choices on it, I'd have to intervene... Me, I tend to follow my paternal grandfather's "religion"... He paraphrased Thomas Paine in saying, "I am a citizen of the world, and my religion is to do good." That's it. No sky pixies, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation, no temples, fasts, child-molesting priests, or praying... And most importantly, no self-delusion whatsoever.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Tut tut tut. Nope, not letting you get away with this one. I take it you mean such stupid people as : Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Descartes, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Lord Kelvin, Max Planck and (arguably) Einstein. All beleived in the sky-pixie. Even ignoring the pre-modern ones the list is impressive and this is just the scientists. Mendel is interesting, his work filled many of the gaps in Darwin's theory of evolution, to do with inheritance and the passing on of traits. He was also a monk. Of course it could be argued that the society we live in is the result of the rennaisance (which lead to the Enlightenment), itself started in the context of Christian religous thought.
Sort of a cross between Lawrence of Arabia and Dilbert.[^]
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A Dead ringer for Kate Winslett[^]Hardly an argument. They were in a world dominated by Religion. Galileo was under the cosh, Bacon was an Atheist, and Copernicus was silenced for quite a while. Scientific Methodology cannot be subject to dogma.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Yeah, I know, Dave... I want to move in that direction, but I force myself not to. I have friends who are religious (My best friend still goes to church every Sunday)... There's just an unspoken arrangement that we don't discuss their religion or my lack thereof... Granted, if they started basing their life choices on it, I'd have to intervene... Me, I tend to follow my paternal grandfather's "religion"... He paraphrased Thomas Paine in saying, "I am a citizen of the world, and my religion is to do good." That's it. No sky pixies, no heaven or hell, no reincarnation, no temples, fasts, child-molesting priests, or praying... And most importantly, no self-delusion whatsoever.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I'm going to throw the 'Liberal Christian' take into this. I believe the Bible, it is a very good analogy of early world history. Take Genesis 1, there was nothing, then light [big bang], the earth formed, land and sea separated [forming the continents], all the plants and animals, and finally man. It did happen that way, just not in seven days. All these numpty dumpties forget that Darwin was a clergyman before being a scientist. There is no conflict, for me at least, between biblical teaching and scientific fact. FFS half the breakthroughs used to question religion where made by very religious people. [No I can't be fraked to list any more] Take the religion out of what the Bible, or Koran for that matter, teaches and it's good common sense with a strong moral overtone of looking after everyone. Just my penny's worth.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
and finally man
Got to take issue with that. Not "and finally man", for man began in the primordial soup 4 billion years ago, we are a dynamic, evolving organism, not the final product. And certainly there are species that have evolved after Homo Sapiens started wandering around.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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I have joined the rank of the Neo-Atheists. We don't just not believe, we actively denigrate and fight against any form of religiousism. We laugh at the stupidity of believers, take objection to anything that obligates us to any form of religious observance and pour scorn upon unnatural or immoral acts that are carried out in the name of a etherial sky pixie.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
and finally man
Got to take issue with that. Not "and finally man", for man began in the primordial soup 4 billion years ago, we are a dynamic, evolving organism, not the final product. And certainly there are species that have evolved after Homo Sapiens started wandering around.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Okay, but man was a pretty late arrival.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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All credit to my grandfather... Was a smart man.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Okay, but man was a pretty late arrival.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Okay, but man was a pretty late arrival...
... to a FIFO structure.
They have changed us.
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Okay, but man was a pretty late arrival...
... to a FIFO structure.
They have changed us.
Anonimista wrote:
... to a FIFO structure.
Sorry, LIFO. :doh:
They have changed us.
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Can religious teachings prove evolution to be true?[^] Interesting article with some of the comments even more interesting. In particular I enjoyed this snippet from one Oliver Elphick. "On the basis of my experience of God, on the evidence of the evident supernatural authorship of the bible, on the word of Jesus that authenticates it and on the verification of his claim to be God by his resurrection, I have ample evidence to believe that God is absolutely trustworthy and that his word is true. It follows then that his account of creation is true; since it contradicts the story of evolution, that must be false." You have to laugh at the mind-boggling ignorance of such drivel. He cites fantasy as evidence and then uses that evidence to argue that the rest of his evidence is true and things for which there is real evidence are false. He has ample evidence? "on the verification of his claim to be God by his resurrection" You what? What verification? There isn't even any evidence that JayCee ever existed never mind managed to die and then come back 3 days later. Thank god I'm an atheist. :)
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
"Baraminologists trawl the fossil record for evidence that this is true. They identify “morphological gaps” in the record (for example, whether fossils of cats exist, but not cat-like animals) and use those to argue that such animal types (cats) are unique and created separately, from say dogs" So the lack of an intermediary step is proof that God exists. Of course the fact fossils are incredibly rare has not crossed their minds and that the reasons their are gaps is because: 1) We havent yet dug up every square inch of sedimentary rock on the planet. 2) Most dead animals get eaten or decompose. Very few meet the exact situation necesary to become a fossil. Thank God I am a Pagan. :)
============================== Nothing to say.
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I have joined the rank of the Neo-Atheists. We don't just not believe, we actively denigrate and fight against any form of religiousism. We laugh at the stupidity of believers, take objection to anything that obligates us to any form of religious observance and pour scorn upon unnatural or immoral acts that are carried out in the name of a etherial sky pixie.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
I have joined the rank of the Neo-Atheists.
have been there since I was about 5 years old! (Lucky to have fairly agnostic parents who encouraged me to question everything).
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Wow... You know, despite being atheist, I try to "live and let live" when it comes to the religious folks... But the creationists make that exceedingly difficult. It must be convenient to just define their own way of looking at reality, and specify in the rules that it does not require any evidence to be considered as absolute truth. "I don't have to prove it! My book says so!"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Yet isn't your friendship limited because of this difference between you?
============================== Nothing to say.
Why would it be?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
"Baraminologists trawl the fossil record for evidence that this is true. They identify “morphological gaps” in the record (for example, whether fossils of cats exist, but not cat-like animals) and use those to argue that such animal types (cats) are unique and created separately, from say dogs" So the lack of an intermediary step is proof that God exists. Of course the fact fossils are incredibly rare has not crossed their minds and that the reasons their are gaps is because: 1) We havent yet dug up every square inch of sedimentary rock on the planet. 2) Most dead animals get eaten or decompose. Very few meet the exact situation necesary to become a fossil. Thank God I am a Pagan. :)
============================== Nothing to say.
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I'm going to throw the 'Liberal Christian' take into this. I believe the Bible, it is a very good analogy of early world history. Take Genesis 1, there was nothing, then light [big bang], the earth formed, land and sea separated [forming the continents], all the plants and animals, and finally man. It did happen that way, just not in seven days. All these numpty dumpties forget that Darwin was a clergyman before being a scientist. There is no conflict, for me at least, between biblical teaching and scientific fact. FFS half the breakthroughs used to question religion where made by very religious people. [No I can't be fraked to list any more] Take the religion out of what the Bible, or Koran for that matter, teaches and it's good common sense with a strong moral overtone of looking after everyone. Just my penny's worth.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
I've never considered that I might be a liberal Christian. LOL. :) I am Christian, go to church every Sunday, lead the church's youth group and yet, I love science and believe it can coexist. There's more than enough proof of evolution that we can't deny it. As for being Christian, it's how I choose to live my life, and don't force my views on anyone else (what a boring world that would be), and don't talk religion unless someone else starts it. Even then, I always put in the clause "this is what I believe, and I could be way wrong". I'm not into converting people. I find it very frustrating the bad name "Christians" have given Christians. :) It's supposed to be about the love, and all it seems to be anymore is nothing but a religion of hate. :(
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Why would it be?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I have joined the rank of the Neo-Atheists. We don't just not believe, we actively denigrate and fight against any form of religiousism. We laugh at the stupidity of believers, take objection to anything that obligates us to any form of religious observance and pour scorn upon unnatural or immoral acts that are carried out in the name of a etherial sky pixie.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
We don't just not believe, we actively denigrate and fight against any form of religiousism.
This is a very difficult choice here in Canada where the whole premise of the country is supposed to be "tolerance". The problem is that it is intended that different cultures be embraced, which I am all for. In fact, I love to learn and understand different cultures, it's fascinating. The problem is that too many people hide behind "culture" when then want to protect their religion and they then scream about discrimination when we call them on their stupid religious practices. We aren't denigrating culture, just stupid, unfounded religious dogma.
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.
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Because there are things you cant talk about, and also do you not respect him or her less?
============================== Nothing to say.
Eric__V wrote:
Because there are things you cant talk about
None that we actually want to talk about.
Eric__V wrote:
and also do you not respect him or her less?
Maybe marginally, but it still leaves him way ahead of everyone else. Everyone has their faults, myself included of course.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
All credit to my grandfather... Was a smart man.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I wish my father and grandfather were like that. I wouldn't have had to wait until my mid 20s until I figured out how to ask "Why" to what I was taught to believe. (That is not to say I don't love and respect them, they were amazing, highly intelligent people who simply didn't have access to all the acquired human knowledge I have)
I wasn't, now I am, then I won't be anymore.