Programming is not a long term career
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
We have three programmers, one in his early fifties, one in his forties, and the youngest in his thirties. I do T-SQL programming and am in my fifties. That being said, my next job will most likely be a greeter at Walmart! :)
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I don't think the future will confirm what you are saying. Programmers have traditionally been young because older people simply didn't have access to computers until very late in life. My father and mother didn't have computers as a child, didn't have the option of choosing Computer Science as a major when they started college, and so on. As computers become a more commonplace technology, a broader spectrum of age groups are becoming familiar with them. Today, there are plenty of 40-year-olds who had computers as a child, and as a result there are plenty of 40-year-old programmers (or, at least, there are more than there were in 1985). The other thing to consider is that demand for programmers is still very strong, and salaries are still high. It's easy to make blanket statements about programming being a young man's game, but I have yet to actually find this supposed army of young, skilled programmers that's out there. In fact, there are some real trends that point to programming becoming an old man's game. The number of CS graduates is stagnant, and these graduates tend more and more to be educated in easier technologies like Java (which is a great language, but much more abstract / less intellectually demanding than the languages in which I was educated). The stereotypical hacker of yore - who lives on Jolt cola and can hand-assemble code for three or four different CPU families - is pushing 60 now; do you know any 20- or 30-year-olds like that? So far as I can tell, society simply does not produce very many of that sort of person (and rumors of their obsolescence are exaggerated).
_beauw_ wrote:
In fact, there are some real trends that point to programming becoming an old man's game. The number of CS graduates is stagnant, and these graduates tend more and more to be educated in easier technologies like Java idiots.
FTFY
Pete O'Hanlon wrote:
I'm looking forward to it; primarily because it should wipe that smug grin off Steve Jobs face.
CPallini wrote:
You cannot argue with agile people so just take the extreme approach and shoot him. :Smile:
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I don't think the future will confirm what you are saying. Programmers have traditionally been young because older people simply didn't have access to computers until very late in life. My father and mother didn't have computers as a child, didn't have the option of choosing Computer Science as a major when they started college, and so on. As computers become a more commonplace technology, a broader spectrum of age groups are becoming familiar with them. Today, there are plenty of 40-year-olds who had computers as a child, and as a result there are plenty of 40-year-old programmers (or, at least, there are more than there were in 1985). The other thing to consider is that demand for programmers is still very strong, and salaries are still high. It's easy to make blanket statements about programming being a young man's game, but I have yet to actually find this supposed army of young, skilled programmers that's out there. In fact, there are some real trends that point to programming becoming an old man's game. The number of CS graduates is stagnant, and these graduates tend more and more to be educated in easier technologies like Java (which is a great language, but much more abstract / less intellectually demanding than the languages in which I was educated). The stereotypical hacker of yore - who lives on Jolt cola and can hand-assemble code for three or four different CPU families - is pushing 60 now; do you know any 20- or 30-year-olds like that? So far as I can tell, society simply does not produce very many of that sort of person (and rumors of their obsolescence are exaggerated).
I can hand assemble some z80 code (but not all, honestly who remembers the machine code for something like ex hl,(sp)?) and some (but less) x86 code (hand coding ModRM bytes gets tiring real fast and there are far too many opcodes to remember) Ok so that doesn't really count, but it comes awfully close IMO And I'm just in my twenties!
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It's like falling off a bike, you never forget how.
ict558 - a Coward and a Fool. Dalek Dave & Hokum (Therefore it must be so, alas.)
And it hurts!
Will Rogers never met me.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
gggustafson wrote:
As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.).
Not necessarily. When I was in my mid-30s I was asked if I wanted to move into an engineering management career path. I declined (no suprise to my employer), and have continued to work in a 100% hands-on technical role (a la hardcore developer). Many of the architects and senior devs I work with have equally grey hair. :) /ravi
My new year resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Articles | My .NET bits | Freeware ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Hi, This can´t be true, didn´t you hear about accountants around that age making a career switch towards programming :)
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart
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We have three programmers, one in his early fifties, one in his forties, and the youngest in his thirties. I do T-SQL programming and am in my fifties. That being said, my next job will most likely be a greeter at Walmart! :)
djj55 wrote:
That being said, my next job will most likely be a greeter at Walmart
I sincerely hope not, fingers crossed you make it to 70 and still codin'.
www.software-kinetics.co.uk Wear a hard hat it's under construction
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Hell - I was 40 before I even started programming for money. Before that it was entertainment (instrument automation, Monte-Carlo models, Hacking a Vax Cluster, other stuff). Real life was Chemistry (a newly shed tear gently strains to moisten a streak upon my cheek).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Interesting, what platform do you code for?
www.software-kinetics.co.uk Wear a hard hat it's under construction
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I'm 41 and still program both in my day job and hobby. I was talking to a colleague about this whole area and he had read an article where programmers were compared to surgeons - more on this later. Many programmers become managers and sometimes bad managers at that, my career path(career path yuk!) has always followed the path of doing what I enjoy and working where I can with intelligent decent people, rather than pursuing the path of becoming a millionaire... My take on this whole area is if you are good at something, enjoy it and can mentor others - then why not continue in it. So coming back to the surgeon analogy - in my world a programmer is more like a trained technician whose analytical and problem solving skills are always improving - a bit like a surgeon. As a mature programmer I have learnt a lot through my mistakes. Technology and techniques aside nothing beats experience... ever... - it's a shame that we are not generally recognised as highly skilled and valuable animals... I also consider myself lucky enough to have been be bought up in the RTFM tradition some 23 years ago at University - so I now feel entitled to say 'pleez give me codez now!' ;) Some stats: I forgot to mention that in my team we have three developers in their 40's, two who in their 20's and a new developer joining us next week who is also in their 40's.
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
modified on Thursday, July 7, 2011 3:31 PM
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My new company is relatively young and their a few over 40's [I am one of them] but I still do some coding, just not that much. In my previous job, the demographics were very different and in my department of around 50 there were 10 over 40's and some even over 50 who were still coding. But remember that as you progress through your career, your priorities change. I can produce far more effective results by instructing a team of 5 coders then by cutting it all myself. Look at PO'H, he's a pretty damned hot code monkey, but AFAIK he rarely writes anything himself anymore. Again his priorities have changed.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Look at PO'H, he's a pretty damned hot code monkey
You'll be wanting to get into bed with Bill Gates next! :)
Dave Find Me On: Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn
Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
Nah. I'll stick with my beautiful wife thank you; but I wouldn't mind a smidgen of his cash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
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Albert Holguin wrote:
older programmers... you know, the ones that look like serial killers...
Hey I resemble that remark! :) Seriously I'm 46 and I have no aspirations to management so I guess I'm stuck as the greybeard programmer! My boss hates that the only thing I put on my IDP (Individual Development Plan) is Mo' Money!! :-D
The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. - Orson Scott Card
Joe Simes wrote:
I'm 46 and I have no aspirations to management so I guess I'm stuck as the greybeard programmer!
You're barely into middle age. I'm 68.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Interesting, what platform do you code for?
www.software-kinetics.co.uk Wear a hard hat it's under construction
I now work for a Windows shop - all XP, but that's changing with each new system. On the plus side of this change, the IT directory would not upgrade from .NET 1.1, but with Windows 7 coming, we're going to be at .NET 4 (at least). On a historical note you may have intended to ask: For the VAX Cluster (under VMS) I programmed in: 1 - Fortran, then 2 - VAX Macro Assembler It took my getting a PC-AT (12 MHz 1 wait state) to move up to C .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I've been doing it since 1980, and actually being paid to do it since 1982. I imagine I'll be doing this until I'm 70 or so. My dad had been an electrician for about 60 years, and only recently had to quit wehen he had a stroke last September. Most programmers are mmoved into management positions between 35 and 40, and that's why you don't see that many old programmers. Me? I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me. For the most part, people leave me alone and let me write code, and I'm fine with that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Me? I hate people,
:thumbsup: (but I'd already guessed.)
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Actually... 3 35+ yr olds, unless the 1 40+ is already counted in your set of 35+
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Nah. I'll stick with my beautiful wife thank you; but I wouldn't mind a smidgen of his cash.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Joe Simes wrote:
I'm 46 and I have no aspirations to management so I guess I'm stuck as the greybeard programmer!
You're barely into middle age. I'm 68.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
I don't think anyone in my family has lived to 92 so I'm past the halfway point! :) 'course if I live to 92 I'll still be working ... the ex made sure of that! :doh:
The environment that nurtures creative programmers kills management and marketing types - and vice versa. - Orson Scott Card
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
The reason you don't see 'old' programmers is because programming itself isn't really that old.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind
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Careful, Pete's got feelings you know! I wouldn't mind a smidgen of Bill's cash either....
Dave Find Me On: Web|Facebook|Twitter|LinkedIn
Folding Stats: Team CodeProject
AFAIK Pete's 'feeling' are what got him the restraining order in the first place.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett