Programming is not a long term career
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I love programming but I think the context is important. If I had to choose between writing javascript for the next 30 years or managing others to do that, I'm choosing management.
Torture vs Management...... what kind of torture did you have in mind? :laugh:
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I've been doing it since 1980, and actually being paid to do it since 1982. I imagine I'll be doing this until I'm 70 or so. My dad had been an electrician for about 60 years, and only recently had to quit wehen he had a stroke last September. Most programmers are mmoved into management positions between 35 and 40, and that's why you don't see that many old programmers. Me? I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me. For the most part, people leave me alone and let me write code, and I'm fine with that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Me? I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me
Same here. I'd merrily use them as range targets than trying to sell anything or explaining why the rookie programmers didn't finish their projects on time/budget. 28 and changed jobs 5 times, whenever my bosses want to turn me into management, I happily quit. Not a good thing if you think on Dilbert's Law of Promotions but well, what the hell, I'm happy with my coding, who hears the customers? :laugh:
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--either way, you are right." — Henry Ford "When I waste my time, I only use the best, Code Project...don't leave home without it." — Slacker007
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I've been doing it since 1980, and actually being paid to do it since 1982. I imagine I'll be doing this until I'm 70 or so. My dad had been an electrician for about 60 years, and only recently had to quit wehen he had a stroke last September. Most programmers are mmoved into management positions between 35 and 40, and that's why you don't see that many old programmers. Me? I hate people, so management isn't exactly the right career path for me. For the most part, people leave me alone and let me write code, and I'm fine with that.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I hate people ... For the most part, people leave me alone and let me write code, and I'm fine with that.
Seems to work for everyone. :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I think it depends where you are, when I worked at an AFB there were a lot of older programmers... you know, the ones that look like serial killers... ;P :laugh:
I know of a situation which is quite the opposite. My girlfriend's father (almost 50 years old) went to management after programming on an AFB for quite some time. He's been there for 25+ years now, IIRC. And he says they don't really have any grey-beard programmers. :-P
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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I know of a situation which is quite the opposite. My girlfriend's father (almost 50 years old) went to management after programming on an AFB for quite some time. He's been there for 25+ years now, IIRC. And he says they don't really have any grey-beard programmers. :-P
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
I saw lots of them... maybe they're undercover... :laugh:
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I disagree. I spend half my programming time fixing up the shit that younger programmers write! There are more younger programmers around because non-technical management see the cheaper resources and don't get to see hands-on the cost of inexperience over time. Sure the ratio can be high - one older, experienced dev for every few cheaper youngster - but without the good older programmers many projects fall into a POC In some companies they are sensible enough to employ experienced developers and to keep less experienced developers to grow from the exposure - in others the more experienced developers move on to better things (not necessarily non-development) and so leave the youngsters behind. I've been in the management position where I was contractually bound NOT to do hands-on programming because I was "too expensive" - but bugger me, if I hadn't got my hands dirty some of the software they developed would never have seen the light of day! What is of concern is the companies who value the youngster for their cheapness and enthusiasm, and seem to think that the next step once you are a programming god, going grey at the temples, is to move into management. A good developer does not a good manager make (necessarily) So people get 'promoted' to their level of incompetence In the successful companies i have been involved with, there is nothing to stop a good senior developer earning more than a manager - and IMHO that's how it should be! The idea that a development manager must earn more than a developer is simply wrong - an employee is worth what they are to the company and an average dev manager can be worth less than an excellent senior developer One other point is that many software developers are contractors - which means moving jobs regularly - something which is fine when you're young and unencumbered, but becomes much less appealing when you're settled (aka old) and would like to just know where the next dollar is coming from.
MVVM# - See how I did MVVM my way ___________________________________________ Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011 .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
It might also be a function of increasing programmer demand. As time has gone by, more and more developers/programmers have entered the market and so all the 'veterans' are spread thinly amongst the large myriad of software generating companies out there (in-house and dedicated software houses). So at any given time the largest portion of developers will be juniors due to growth in this technological era. Added to this that some of them DO get moved into more senior positions or more people-oriented and management positions. Some become managers, some become BA's, some become pure architects and some other yet go out on their own, whether to work as contractors or owners of start-ups.
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I hope I've forgotten my COBOL; it must be nearly 20 years since I cut any.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
COBOL rule #1 - remember the periods! :thumbsup:
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
If you want promotion, a bigger car, a nicer house, etc, it's likely that you'll eventually have to leave the IDE behind.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
The option being what? Become an accountant? Or a salesman? Or a Real Estate agent? Just because they have long career arcs? And spend the rest of my life hating my life. I don't think so. I've done other things. They weren't as good to me, and they weren't a good fit. Nor should someone choose to work with technology if they don't love it on some level. It's hard, especially if you are pushing your limits. IT, Love it or leave it.
_____________________________ Give a man a mug, he drinks for a day. Teach a man to mug...
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Joe Simes wrote:
the only thing I put on my IDP (Individual Development Plan) is Mo' Money!!
Max respect!
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Max respect!
Is that Max Headroom's[^] brother?
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I think it depends where you are, when I worked at an AFB there were a lot of older programmers... you know, the ones that look like serial killers... ;P :laugh:
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My new company is relatively young and their a few over 40's [I am one of them] but I still do some coding, just not that much. In my previous job, the demographics were very different and in my department of around 50 there were 10 over 40's and some even over 50 who were still coding. But remember that as you progress through your career, your priorities change. I can produce far more effective results by instructing a team of 5 coders then by cutting it all myself. Look at PO'H, he's a pretty damned hot code monkey, but AFAIK he rarely writes anything himself anymore. Again his priorities have changed.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
Look at PO'H, he's a pretty damned hot code monkey, but AFAIK he rarely writes anything himself anymore. Again his priorities have changed.
That's not true. I write responses to requests for tender, compliance documents, updates on our compliance to the 3 gazillion new regulations that come out of the government each day. Oh wait, I see what you mean.:~
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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AFAIK Pete's 'feeling' are what got him the restraining order in the first place.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
3000 miles between me and Salma Hayek. It's a bugger when she goes on a world tour - I have to keep changing continents.
Forgive your enemies - it messes with their heads
My blog | My articles | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier - my favourite utility
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I'm 61 and still programming full time. The only other thing I am qualified to do is "Starship Commander" but there are few available openings right now... Anyway, if a ship doesn't come and get me off this rock of a planet, I'll more than likely be found DAC (dead at computer)
Steve Naidamast Black Falcon Software, Inc. blackfalconsoftware@ix.netcom.com
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I'm 54 and I'm not the oldest programmer on the floor, but its a large Bank company. In general, you max out on the pay scale by 40. So if you want a pay raise after 40 you need to go into management. Now if you work for a good company and enjoy the work, stick with it. You only get better with age.
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Young programmers are cheaper, that's why nobody in my old company was over 30.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
No, young programmers are perceived to be cheaper by management with little or no experience in these matters. Experience can ONLY be gained with age (though age in itself does not prove that anything has been LEARNED from experience!) and, regardless of the programming language, toolset, application etc.. etc.. there are things that are learned from (sometimes bitter) experience that can make older developers very much more cost-effective (not cheaper by the hour) than new graduates or even developers in their thirties. What's more, age tends to weed out those who aren't really passionate about programming - they become managers, salespeople, admininstrators etc. Find someone in their 50s who's still programming after 20 or 30 years, and you'll find a highly experienced, adaptable, enthusiastic individual who can add a lot more to a development project than just lines of code. I've been writing code in six different decades now (and still I'm only 52 - started in 1969) and was progressing up the technical seniority path in various organisations until they tried to push me into management. I jumped ship, went freelance, and just write code for a living these days. This year I'm on target to earn 6 times what I earned as a programming team leader in a major multinational (taking inflation into account) and am having much more fun! It certainly CAN be long-term if you want it to be and have the skills and mindset to do it.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
How about a programming manager? That's the category I've gotten myself into. Absolutely hated the times I was a manager and did not have time to program. But your point is taken. Moving into management is a logical progression from a salary point of view, but for me, the incentive was to get out from under the idiot managers I had worked for almost all of my career. Now I can be the idiot manager benevolent, understanding director of my minions, that I wished I had had. Older programmers have different responsibilities than younger ones. We're no longer able to crank for 50+ hours on a project, we're expected to show up for dinner and spend some time with the kids. Bills must be paid, yard and house maintenance has to be done, etc.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Hey! I take offense to be refered as a graybeard, although my graybeard is mostly white now. Most of the graybeard developers in the over 55 crowd have now become the "Terminally Un-Employed". They have been jettisoned by companies as too expensive and have been replaced by offshore developers. Mainly here in the U.S. But the funny revelation is that when companies run into serious development problems encountered by outsourcing or inexperienced developers, whom do they call? The graybeards! So when you see a white bearded, white haired developer, in a white robe, say hi to me, Gandalf the White!
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I am a couple weeks away from turning 50 years old. I have spent 30 of those years working as a programmer, starting part-time in my sophomore year of college. I've done everything from microcontroller applications where the entire program was 40 instructions to multiprocessor, multithreaded behemoths a team and I took 20 man-years to develop. In my experience there are two types of programmers out there. The first type are like me. They like developing software, and some of them are actually good at it. The fact that they're able to earn a living doing something they enjoy is a nice side benefit. The second type uses programming as a gateway to other things. They don't particularly like programming, even though some of them are capable. Instead, they're using engineering as a path into management. In a lot of cases they don't have the people skills or aren't pretty enough for a direct attack on the management career track. I think you're seeing a lot of the second type. It's unusual for that type of programmer to still be in a technical track past their early 30's. By then they've graduated to technical supervision, at which point they do a lateral shift into marketing or some other dreadful hellhole of a job. I've seen this more times than I can count. I work with a guy now who started as an intern. He was a nice kid and fairly smart. His code was pretty good. 15 years later he's a 'director' (mid-level manager), in charge of about 15 people. He has a reputation as an ambitious empire builder.
Software Zen:
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