Programming is not a long term career
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Young programmers are cheaper, that's why nobody in my old company was over 30.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
No, young programmers are perceived to be cheaper by management with little or no experience in these matters. Experience can ONLY be gained with age (though age in itself does not prove that anything has been LEARNED from experience!) and, regardless of the programming language, toolset, application etc.. etc.. there are things that are learned from (sometimes bitter) experience that can make older developers very much more cost-effective (not cheaper by the hour) than new graduates or even developers in their thirties. What's more, age tends to weed out those who aren't really passionate about programming - they become managers, salespeople, admininstrators etc. Find someone in their 50s who's still programming after 20 or 30 years, and you'll find a highly experienced, adaptable, enthusiastic individual who can add a lot more to a development project than just lines of code. I've been writing code in six different decades now (and still I'm only 52 - started in 1969) and was progressing up the technical seniority path in various organisations until they tried to push me into management. I jumped ship, went freelance, and just write code for a living these days. This year I'm on target to earn 6 times what I earned as a programming team leader in a major multinational (taking inflation into account) and am having much more fun! It certainly CAN be long-term if you want it to be and have the skills and mindset to do it.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
How about a programming manager? That's the category I've gotten myself into. Absolutely hated the times I was a manager and did not have time to program. But your point is taken. Moving into management is a logical progression from a salary point of view, but for me, the incentive was to get out from under the idiot managers I had worked for almost all of my career. Now I can be the idiot manager benevolent, understanding director of my minions, that I wished I had had. Older programmers have different responsibilities than younger ones. We're no longer able to crank for 50+ hours on a project, we're expected to show up for dinner and spend some time with the kids. Bills must be paid, yard and house maintenance has to be done, etc.
Psychosis at 10 Film at 11
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Hey! I take offense to be refered as a graybeard, although my graybeard is mostly white now. Most of the graybeard developers in the over 55 crowd have now become the "Terminally Un-Employed". They have been jettisoned by companies as too expensive and have been replaced by offshore developers. Mainly here in the U.S. But the funny revelation is that when companies run into serious development problems encountered by outsourcing or inexperienced developers, whom do they call? The graybeards! So when you see a white bearded, white haired developer, in a white robe, say hi to me, Gandalf the White!
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I am a couple weeks away from turning 50 years old. I have spent 30 of those years working as a programmer, starting part-time in my sophomore year of college. I've done everything from microcontroller applications where the entire program was 40 instructions to multiprocessor, multithreaded behemoths a team and I took 20 man-years to develop. In my experience there are two types of programmers out there. The first type are like me. They like developing software, and some of them are actually good at it. The fact that they're able to earn a living doing something they enjoy is a nice side benefit. The second type uses programming as a gateway to other things. They don't particularly like programming, even though some of them are capable. Instead, they're using engineering as a path into management. In a lot of cases they don't have the people skills or aren't pretty enough for a direct attack on the management career track. I think you're seeing a lot of the second type. It's unusual for that type of programmer to still be in a technical track past their early 30's. By then they've graduated to technical supervision, at which point they do a lateral shift into marketing or some other dreadful hellhole of a job. I've seen this more times than I can count. I work with a guy now who started as an intern. He was a nice kid and fairly smart. His code was pretty good. 15 years later he's a 'director' (mid-level manager), in charge of about 15 people. He has a reputation as an ambitious empire builder.
Software Zen:
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Software can be a life career...but you have to accept the price. The price has several components: -- You must become a well-regarded specialist in a sub-discipline of programming that won't be obsoleted by developments. -- You must go to work for a company that needs and respects such specialists. -- You must renounce all hope of ever gaining rank in your employer's Table of Organization. -- You must accept that the stratosphere of salary and perquisites is reserved for managers, directors, and so forth, and is therefore inaccessible to you. My own experience might help to illustrate this. I'm 59. I specialize in real-time simulation, with a "sideline" in the programming of exotic hardware interfaces. My employer, a large defense contractor, has an ongoing need for such specialists; we build the laboratories in which tactical software products are tested. I've been doing what I do for thirty years, and will probably be encouraged to keep doing it until I feel like retiring. I didn't make a conscious decision to adopt this specialty; I "lucked into it" when I was hired by another defense contractor, some thirty years ago. But it suited me, and I decided to stay with it. Though I'm occasionally given "team leader" positions, my name never appears on a managerial chart. That suits me, too. Not everyone can do this, whether for reasons of taste, temperament, or talent. I was told several times over the course of the years that I should expect my trade to pall on me, that I should make provisions for a career shift, and that the real opportunities lie in other fields. But here I am, and I have no regrets. Occupationally, at any rate.
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Joe Simes wrote:
'course if I live to 92 I'll still be working ... the ex made sure of that!
Only one ex? You're smarter than I am I guess. I've got three - plus an ex-live-in who proved there was no fool like an old fool. I may have to work until you're 92, too. :omg:
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
:thumbsup::thumbsup: :laugh: :laugh:
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No, young programmers are perceived to be cheaper by management with little or no experience in these matters. Experience can ONLY be gained with age (though age in itself does not prove that anything has been LEARNED from experience!) and, regardless of the programming language, toolset, application etc.. etc.. there are things that are learned from (sometimes bitter) experience that can make older developers very much more cost-effective (not cheaper by the hour) than new graduates or even developers in their thirties. What's more, age tends to weed out those who aren't really passionate about programming - they become managers, salespeople, admininstrators etc. Find someone in their 50s who's still programming after 20 or 30 years, and you'll find a highly experienced, adaptable, enthusiastic individual who can add a lot more to a development project than just lines of code. I've been writing code in six different decades now (and still I'm only 52 - started in 1969) and was progressing up the technical seniority path in various organisations until they tried to push me into management. I jumped ship, went freelance, and just write code for a living these days. This year I'm on target to earn 6 times what I earned as a programming team leader in a major multinational (taking inflation into account) and am having much more fun! It certainly CAN be long-term if you want it to be and have the skills and mindset to do it.
Oh I agree with you, I should have a sarcasm icon. Nobody in my old company was older than say 35 actually, and it was because the bottom line was keeping salaries low. After starting there and seeing the turnover I saw that it was a place to get your foot into the door in the industry and leave after 3 years. I'll say some of the problems caused by young management (The experienced CTO was let go and replaced with a 27 year old BA shortly before I bailed) was the reason I left. Now I'm the only developer on my team under 40.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I completely disagree. I'm 45, still coding, still current and will remain so until they stick tubes in me on my deathbed. In fact, I'm at yet another crossroads in my career (there are many on the technology road) - stick with .NET, which is my bread and butter, or switch to Android and open source-based development? I'm making the move to mobile development, and right now that means Android development for me. I started out over 20 years ago as a C/UNIX guy, then moved to Windows, then moved to .NET, and will remain open minded and flexible as technology choices and trends dictate (or interest me). So my advice to the young 'uns - keep developing, keep learning, do what you love. There will only be an increasing need for talent going forward, especially as that talent becomes senior-level.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
gggustafson wrote:
To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40?
I am 34 and now I have 25 years of programming experience. (I started at the age of 9 in primary school). They call me "youngster"... because I am the youngest developer in this company. We have all shades of gray from dark grey to white, whatever you like.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
I'll be 50 this year and am still programming and getting paid for it - mostly in VB.Net, mind you! That's a step up from the IBM mainframes and punched cards I started on in school at age 14 though. Of course I am 1/3 owner of the company now. Got 4 of the top 10 Fortune 500 companies as clients and enough 5 year contracts being re-signed that I don't have to worry about new clients. I still find programming a lot more stimulating that managing people or businesses. And I am also hopeless at hiring junior programmers so am destined to be the main programmer for the company despite having 5 staff with either degrees or diplomas in IT or Computer Science working on our help desk.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
There are 5 of us in my group. Two of us are 51. One is mid-50s, two are mid- to late-40s (not sure exactly). We also have one contractor who is well past "retirement age". But we're doing SCADA, so that may skew differently than other specialties, and there's zero turnover. Thinking about programmers in other areas of the department (or contractors), it seems like most are in their late 20s to late 30s. I would think that a lot of programmers would have zero desire to take a management path, so would wind up programming until they retire. My title in the payroll system has the letters "mgr" in it, but there's nobody under me. That's the only way to get the pay grade. I hope that programming is a long term career, because I hope to be here for 20 more years. Broadening the scope, is anything a long term career? Don't engineers wind up as managers after they've proven themselves? Of course, engineering managers are still "Professional Engineers", and young engineers can't become PEs unless they work for managers who are PEs. Perhaps engineering management is still engineering, even if you never touch a drawing.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Most programmers are young because most programming jobs have been around for less than 10 years. Honestly, how many programmers do you think it took to run the world before the web, before dot.coms, before there were 3 PCs in every house and every car had a dozen microcontrollers? In 1981, when I went to work, there were about 14,000 people doing programming full time in the US (according to EE Times). Now there are something like 3 million. That said, age discrimination is a huge problem in programming. Managers who are themselves young programmers don't perceive the value of experience. They put a premium instead on knowing this years' wizzy new language or API, because that's their own personal strength, and we always like to hire ourselves, because we are so very smart. Consequently, while the best programmers are about ten times as productive as the worst ones, the salary range is only about 2x. Programming is becoming like nursing; a great paying job right out of school, but 20 years later you're making the same wage, and new hires make as much as you do. Programming is a very portable job. All you need is a $400 laptop and the Internet. So the competition is worldwide. The workforce in India and China is even younger than it is here, mostly having been educated since about 2001. That's going to keep wages down. We seem to be a variable cost too. When the economy turns down, no new dev projects start up for 2 years. If you are standing up when the music stops, you're screwed. If you're on a project, you don't even notice the downturn because you're working nights and weekends and the money is good. The urge to become a manager == the urge to make more money next year than last year, to feed your growing family or growing obsession with stuff. Same thing for the urge to leave programming and do something else. The real question is, why would even a young person want to enter the profession? The answer needs to be, "Because you're geeky and you love to write code." If the answer was, "I heard the wages are great and you can get rich at some startup.", then I wish you good luck. Save money for your behavioral health therapist, 'cause you're heading for one hellacious midlife crisis. []
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Joe Simes wrote:
'course if I live to 92 I'll still be working ... the ex made sure of that!
Only one ex? You're smarter than I am I guess. I've got three - plus an ex-live-in who proved there was no fool like an old fool. I may have to work until you're 92, too. :omg:
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
he 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Who is "R. A. H."? Curious because I'm stealing this tagline and need to know if someone asks me.
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Oakman wrote:
he 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Who is "R. A. H."? Curious because I'm stealing this tagline and need to know if someone asks me.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
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To those of you who program for a living, look around. How many programmers do you see who are older than 30? Older than 35? Older than 40? It's my guess that, as you proceed through the increasing ages, you will find fewer and fewer hands-on programmers. So what's that mean to younger programmers, say, in their twenties? I believe that it means that programming is not a long term career path. As programmers become older, they fall prey to the niceties of management (carpets, big desk, a door that closes, etc.). And as a result, fewer and fewer programmers have gray hair. Maybe a lot of managers do but few programmers do. I'm a lucky one. I continue to program. And I'm old! But I think I bring a far ranging experience to the table. I am cautioning young programmers to beware. Although you may think it is, programming is not a long term career.
Like gggustafson, I have worked in the computer arena for a LONG time, 35 years. From my perspective, one starts with a calling, the purpose God created you for and empowers you to accomplish. To accomplish your calling, there are major track(s), your career(s), to be followed. These are your short- and long-range plans, to include milestones of accomplishment. A job is the immediate activity your are carrying out as you move toward your next milestone. From this perspective, one does not see any job, nor even career, as the only thing one will engage in during one's life. Rather, they are means to an end. So, yes, programming is not something one should plan on doing for the rest of one's life. Still, one does not have to depart the computer arena. After all these years, I am still working as an in-demand technical professional. Here is the general track my career has taken: - told what to do and how to do it - given problems to solve - expected to figure out what problems to solve - form and lead teams in discovering and resolving difficult problems Two other tracks are mentioned in a slide from a talk of mine: http://informationanthology.net/CareerMentor/ConcerningSuccessfulCareers_Thursday/Slide7.JPG[^] Growth entails risk. All moves in life must consider that risk and account for it.
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Joe Simes wrote:
I'm 46 and I have no aspirations to management so I guess I'm stuck as the greybeard programmer!
You're barely into middle age. I'm 68.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
You're barely into middle age. I'm 68.
Depends on your point of view. I outraged a 27 year old coworker by telling her I entered middle age on my 25th birthday. My view? Life expectency is 75, youth= 0-25, middle age= 25-50, old age= 50-75, 75+= bonus time. Just because you are 10 years my senior, we are still both in old age. There is no rule you have to ACT old! I'm hoping to be fit enough to be tearing around corners on the back of a carriage when I'm 80+
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Most programmers are young because most programming jobs have been around for less than 10 years. Honestly, how many programmers do you think it took to run the world before the web, before dot.coms, before there were 3 PCs in every house and every car had a dozen microcontrollers? In 1981, when I went to work, there were about 14,000 people doing programming full time in the US (according to EE Times). Now there are something like 3 million. That said, age discrimination is a huge problem in programming. Managers who are themselves young programmers don't perceive the value of experience. They put a premium instead on knowing this years' wizzy new language or API, because that's their own personal strength, and we always like to hire ourselves, because we are so very smart. Consequently, while the best programmers are about ten times as productive as the worst ones, the salary range is only about 2x. Programming is becoming like nursing; a great paying job right out of school, but 20 years later you're making the same wage, and new hires make as much as you do. Programming is a very portable job. All you need is a $400 laptop and the Internet. So the competition is worldwide. The workforce in India and China is even younger than it is here, mostly having been educated since about 2001. That's going to keep wages down. We seem to be a variable cost too. When the economy turns down, no new dev projects start up for 2 years. If you are standing up when the music stops, you're screwed. If you're on a project, you don't even notice the downturn because you're working nights and weekends and the money is good. The urge to become a manager == the urge to make more money next year than last year, to feed your growing family or growing obsession with stuff. Same thing for the urge to leave programming and do something else. The real question is, why would even a young person want to enter the profession? The answer needs to be, "Because you're geeky and you love to write code." If the answer was, "I heard the wages are great and you can get rich at some startup.", then I wish you good luck. Save money for your behavioral health therapist, 'cause you're heading for one hellacious midlife crisis. []
From my personal experience, your claim that "In 1981, when I went to work, there were about 14,000 people doing programming full time in the US (according to EE Times)." is flawed. In 1981, CSC employed more people than that.
