How much knowing math well helps programmer?!
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I think that all of it is. You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values. I think that is maths.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Fair enough.
ChrisElston wrote:
You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values.
I don't really think of that as math, even though it technically is. My reason, it's second nature to us. I think of math as complex equations and/or mathematical algorithms. To me that is math in programming.
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In that statement, I indeed was thinking of maths as being the number crunching, algorithm aspect of it. Which was what I interpreted from the OP. But your reasoning of it meaning an all encompassing maths makes it a pointless topic
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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Fair enough.
ChrisElston wrote:
You have something, it has a value, what happens depends on what that value is in relation to some other value or values.
I don't really think of that as math, even though it technically is. My reason, it's second nature to us. I think of math as complex equations and/or mathematical algorithms. To me that is math in programming.
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Most don't, which is essentially the argument I have been having further down with this. I see maths as being far more than what they teach as maths in schools. It is an innate understanding of certain things, a way of dealing with data. That was the reason for the maths is art comment I made. To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of. That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything. Just my opinion, not expecting everyone to agree, but that is what I think.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Most don't, which is essentially the argument I have been having further down with this. I see maths as being far more than what they teach as maths in schools. It is an innate understanding of certain things, a way of dealing with data. That was the reason for the maths is art comment I made. To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of. That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything. Just my opinion, not expecting everyone to agree, but that is what I think.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
To be a good programmer, coder, whatever I think you need to have a mathematical streak in you, even if it is not something you understand or are aware of.
That is why once you have learnt to code it doesn't matter what language you use, you can easily pick up another, because you have an understanding of or a feeling for the mathematical principles that underpin everything.I read this twice. Very well said and I think you do in fact make a great point. :thumbsup:
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
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Much as I admire your attempt to teach them the correct spelling of MATHS, I feel I must pull you up on this line...
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
An understanding of how things work under the hood helps when implementing.
Bonnet, surely? Just sayin'
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Oh I see my problem. From now on you explain how I should interpret every topic and then I'll agree with you.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Again, I said nothing like that. I just admitted that my interpretation was more limited than yours, and this is why I commented how I did. I don't want you to agree, I just want you to understand what I say before you argue your point
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
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Again, I said nothing like that. I just admitted that my interpretation was more limited than yours, and this is why I commented how I did. I don't want you to agree, I just want you to understand what I say before you argue your point
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
You said that my interpretation made the whole thing pointless. So for my contributions to not be pointless I need to understand which interpretations you find acceptable. If I am to interpret everything the same was then what is left but to say "I agree" and move on to the next one?
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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But what is Art?
The hardest part of art is making it not look like art. Translation and application to this topic: development is an art. When done properly the end result is simple and understandable, maybe even cold. But if you looked at the route to get there, you would understand it as an art.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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A good solid understanding of maths - it's shortened from mathematics not mathematic - is a must in anything by the most trivial application. [example: How do you determine a hash code and how will you know if it's good?] You need a good knowledge of logic. Is the decision point in your if statement correct? An understanding of how things work under the hood helps when implementing. A true example, we had to sort a list on the fly as it came in, probably 80-100 items through per minute and it needed to refresh the display. Easy yes? The sort algorythym moved about the values rather than the references and it was pants, a quick index in the middle and sorting was reduced to negligible. Only sorting when refreshing the display was another cheap improvement.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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I didn't say logic was required. I said it helps, and by that I mean being a logical thinker is a plus. like someone that has good problem solving skills etc. If you mean the AND/OR/NOT etc. logic then that is certainly another plus in some areas of programming
My opinions are right, and yours are wrong! (or at least that is my opinion)
AND / Or / NOT is all boolean algebra - and tht's pure math ...
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
Math is good logic. And I feel insulted that some people here mention "art": the exact opposite of objective reality and logic. Art is for retards; logic, math and programming is for geniuses... :P
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
I, as the rest of the guys here feel that programming and maths have got very similar traits. I didn't study maths at varsity however have got a maths oriented brain. (or logical). The company I'm working for specialized in aircraft systems/aircraft manafacturing and there is alot of highlevel maths that floats around in some of these systems. That said, not everyone in the company are maths geniusses. I would say that it is important to know a maths guru when working with complex software systems however not needed to be a programmer. Guru Maths = complex algorithms. Its very rare that one stumbles across a complex algorithm as a programmer, and when you do, ask a friend.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence." << please vote!! >>
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
I suppose it depends on what you do, and what tools you have. On my second job I was mainly responsible for the develpment and integration of neural networks into an automated visual quality assurance system, but the math involved was entirely covered by the tool, NeuralWorks. In my current job, I write algorithms for the planning of tool paths for huge milling machines, and although I have tools like Mathematica available, I still do have to develop and write numerical algorithms all by myself because we desperately need to optimize them for our specific needs. That said, I spent more than 10 years programming applications that did not require any real mathematics at all, except maybe for the programming logic inherent in all programs.
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Math is good logic. And I feel insulted that some people here mention "art": the exact opposite of objective reality and logic. Art is for retards; logic, math and programming is for geniuses... :P
I beg to disagree. Math is all about making complicated systems looking simple. When I see a short and seemingly simple formula expressing the core of an incredibly complex problem, then that's beautiful, and in its own way, that is Art. To give an example that (hopefully) most people will understand, the formula
E = mc^2
appears to be extraordinarily simple, but it is the result of some complex mathematical derivations, based on a few physical theorems. Another example although not so widely known, are Bezier Splines and their inherent geometrical properties, including the algorithms used to work with them. Yet another example are fractals, although I have to admit that the beauty mostly lies in the way people use to visualize them. Still, the fact that you can create constructs of virtually infinite complexity just from a simple formula or small set of formulas, turns fractals into objects of art. I pity anyone who cannot appreciate the beauty that emerges from the underlying mathematics, because that is what nourishes our curiosity and drives us mathematicians to research ever more complex systems.
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
It's very depends from your specialization. I work in document management area, databases, networking, etc - NO ANY MATH. My main pain-in-the-ass is fighting with hidden sh*t inside libraries. Sounds boring, but it's like a good detective! :) So my "programming" is crime investigation. :))
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I beg to disagree. Math is all about making complicated systems looking simple. When I see a short and seemingly simple formula expressing the core of an incredibly complex problem, then that's beautiful, and in its own way, that is Art. To give an example that (hopefully) most people will understand, the formula
E = mc^2
appears to be extraordinarily simple, but it is the result of some complex mathematical derivations, based on a few physical theorems. Another example although not so widely known, are Bezier Splines and their inherent geometrical properties, including the algorithms used to work with them. Yet another example are fractals, although I have to admit that the beauty mostly lies in the way people use to visualize them. Still, the fact that you can create constructs of virtually infinite complexity just from a simple formula or small set of formulas, turns fractals into objects of art. I pity anyone who cannot appreciate the beauty that emerges from the underlying mathematics, because that is what nourishes our curiosity and drives us mathematicians to research ever more complex systems.
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
Some GUI stuff is impossible to do without knowledge of geometrics. Some business logic stuff is impossible to do without knowledge of calculus. However, some GUI as well as business logic stuff requires none of both (especially in mainstream LOB applications). So the answer obviously is: it depends what you do. Or, more specifically, what the project you are working on is supposed to do. Having said that, I do think that people with a "natural" math-oriented brain will be better programmers. It's all about the logic and reasoning. For example, the reasoning behind things like refactoring is quite similar to factorizing in algebra. In high-school, most of the time you'll see that people are either good in math, or they are good at languages. Only rarely will people be good at both. In my experience, the math oriented people will turn out to be the better software engineers (with or without actually studying math). I guess it's just the way their brain works. My girlfriend is one of those "language oriented" people. I could spent all day explaining what a recursive function is and I guarantee you that she won't be able to comprehend it. :-)
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
In my opinion, math is nothing more than the study of logic. And, as everyone seems to agree, programming requires logic ... I think that there is a big misunderstanding of what mathematics really are. People focus on math being complex equation and strange symbols: this is not math, this is the language we chose to explore (cartesian) logic. Would you reduce medicine to its wording, or coding to C++? I am very surprised to read that many programmers think that they do not need math to do their job. Look at any code: "function", "class" (=equivalence class), "variable", "array" (=vector), "+", "*", "%", ... understanding how these objects interact is the aim of mathematics! Even at a more fundamental level, a code essentially consists of 2 things: Logical tests (!) and loops (=matrix multiplication). Math is everywhere in a code, even if you don't see it! There is no doubt for me that math helps programmers. I would even say that there is no programer without mathematical knowledge (understanding what are functions or classes is a mathematical knowledge in itself, even if you did not learn it in your math class! ). Coders use maths at every line of their code without thinking about it. The language used to express things is slightly different, but the core is the same. Finally, when considering very complex computations, one quickly realizes that the mathematical language allows faster and better analysis of the problem than any programing language: It was developed in this scope!
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Recently I had a fun discussion with my colleague(he works on algorithms) on this topic, thought you guys would give some insight.
i am not good at math but i can program. if you have math its a bonus.
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