Shout out to Oakman (Debt Ceiling)
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As far as I'm concerned, I wasn't around to have a say in it when it was planned. As far as I'm concerned it was created by people without a complete understanding of population growth and economic theory. It may have served a purpose that was useful during the Depression, but it should have been strongly reconsidered after the 50's. It most definitely is a money pyramid. If you fail to see that, then I will discontinue our discussion.
Majerus wrote:
You agreed to it by being an american citizen.
This statement is rubbish. So by being an American citizen, I can't dissent from any system that was put into place before I was born? That idea itself is anti-American. If that were the golden rule, we would still own slaves and my mother would not be allowed to vote. Carry that idea forward, and I hope someday same sex couples will be married in the eyes of the feds. Should they stop fighting for this right, because they are citizens and must they accept a bargain that was created before their time? America is founded on the right to have an opinion and express one's view, no matter how unpopular. It does come back to bite us occasionally, but it would be hard to find an educated man that would argue against it.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, I wasn't around to have a say in it when it was planned.
It doesn't matter. Neither was I.
wizardzz wrote:
As far as I'm concerned it was created by people without a complete understanding of population growth and economic theory.
And you are wrong. They understood it quite well and made their calculations based on very good knowledge.
wizardzz wrote:
It most definitely is a money pyramid. If you fail to see that, then I will discontinue our discussion.
Then it never was a discussion. If you can't handle disagreement, you really should pick up your marbles and go home.
wizardzz wrote:
So by being an American citizen, I can't dissent from any system that was put into place before I was born?
I never said that. You can dissent all you want - you can even change things. But don't pretend you aren't being - at the very least - selfish when you suggest looting SS to pay down the debt.
wizardzz wrote:
America is founded on the right to have an opinion and express one's view, no matter how unpopular. It does come back to bite us occasionally, but it would be hard to find an educated man that would argue against it.
You really went off the rails here. I've never suggested you can't have an opinion, I haven't suggested you can't voice it nor have I suggested you can't work to implement it.
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wizardzz wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, I wasn't around to have a say in it when it was planned.
It doesn't matter. Neither was I.
wizardzz wrote:
As far as I'm concerned it was created by people without a complete understanding of population growth and economic theory.
And you are wrong. They understood it quite well and made their calculations based on very good knowledge.
wizardzz wrote:
It most definitely is a money pyramid. If you fail to see that, then I will discontinue our discussion.
Then it never was a discussion. If you can't handle disagreement, you really should pick up your marbles and go home.
wizardzz wrote:
So by being an American citizen, I can't dissent from any system that was put into place before I was born?
I never said that. You can dissent all you want - you can even change things. But don't pretend you aren't being - at the very least - selfish when you suggest looting SS to pay down the debt.
wizardzz wrote:
America is founded on the right to have an opinion and express one's view, no matter how unpopular. It does come back to bite us occasionally, but it would be hard to find an educated man that would argue against it.
You really went off the rails here. I've never suggested you can't have an opinion, I haven't suggested you can't voice it nor have I suggested you can't work to implement it.
Majerus wrote:
They understood it quite well and made their calculations based on very good knowledge.
However, they were made before the Boomer generation was even conceived.
Majerus wrote:
You really went off the rails here. I've never suggested you can't have an opinion, I haven't suggested you can't voice it nor have I suggested you can't work to implement it.
You said stated, "You agreed to it by being an american citizen." I never agreed to SS, and by being an American citizen, I have in no way agreed to any previous legislation. My "going off the rails" was a response to this asinine statement.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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Majerus wrote:
They understood it quite well and made their calculations based on very good knowledge.
However, they were made before the Boomer generation was even conceived.
Majerus wrote:
You really went off the rails here. I've never suggested you can't have an opinion, I haven't suggested you can't voice it nor have I suggested you can't work to implement it.
You said stated, "You agreed to it by being an american citizen." I never agreed to SS, and by being an American citizen, I have in no way agreed to any previous legislation. My "going off the rails" was a response to this asinine statement.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
However, they were made before the Boomer generation was even conceived.
True, as far as it goes, but that was addressed in the 80's and that fix is good for another 30 years.
wizardzz wrote:
I never agreed to SS, and by being an American citizen, I have in no way agreed to any previous legislation.
Actually you have. You've agreed to pay income taxes, you've agree to live under the constitution, you've agreed to an endless list of things by being born an american citizen. You can disagree, you can speak out, you can agitate for change. You can even disagree with me.
wizardzz wrote:
My "going off the rails" was a response to this asinine statement.
Yes, I know that - you copied my statement into you post. But your response was totally diconnected from what I had said.
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wizardzz wrote:
However, they were made before the Boomer generation was even conceived.
True, as far as it goes, but that was addressed in the 80's and that fix is good for another 30 years.
wizardzz wrote:
I never agreed to SS, and by being an American citizen, I have in no way agreed to any previous legislation.
Actually you have. You've agreed to pay income taxes, you've agree to live under the constitution, you've agreed to an endless list of things by being born an american citizen. You can disagree, you can speak out, you can agitate for change. You can even disagree with me.
wizardzz wrote:
My "going off the rails" was a response to this asinine statement.
Yes, I know that - you copied my statement into you post. But your response was totally diconnected from what I had said.
Majerus wrote:
You've agreed to pay income taxes, you've agree to live under the constitution
To some, including myself, these are mutually exclusive statements.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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Do you think we will make the "dead line"? Whether we do or not, do you think that we will come up with a medium to long term solution for dealing with our increasing debt?
----------------------------- Just along for the ride. -----------------------------
Slacker007 wrote:
Do you think we will make the "dead line"?
I would have said no a few days ago. Now I am beginning to think McConnell's brilliantly conceived and statesmanlike kicking of the can down the road might appeal to enough of the old-boy network of both parties to pass, even in the House. An y time our Congress can abdicate its responsibility and hide its head in the sand, it is unwise to think any other alternative will succeed.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Raise the ceiling and borrow more. Simples. :-D
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
borrow more
How's that working out for Greece?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Raise the debt ceiling to deal with the immediate problem, then raise taxes and cut loopholes. Also, allow inflation to eat at long term debt. Cut foreign aid, cut military aid, cut military expenditure by not fighting all those wars, 10% on petrol and increase retirement age by 2 years.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave CCC Link[^] Trolls[^]
Dalek Dave wrote:
then raise taxes and cut loopholes.
As long as we continue to tax production rather than consumption, we are fucked. The reason our Congress will never adopt a Fair Tax[^] is because it treats everyone equally. Our government is all about playing favorites. That's why my brother-in-law who runs a small business pays 39% on his company profits while Jeffrey Immelt, friend of Obama and head of G.E., pays no corporate taxes at all. I am all in favor of eliminating loopholes, but most folks consider tax breaks only for people or organizations they don't approve of to be "loopholes." We need to eliminate the homeowners mortgage loophole, and the charitable organization loophole. We need to dump the oil loopholes and the green energy loopholes. We need to tax hedge-fund managers in exactly the same way that we take plumbers. We also need to tax farmers in exactly the same way as we do plumbers.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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wizardzz wrote:
and likely never benefit?
The only reason why you won't benefit is if you allow SS to be destroyed. The Republicans are working very hard to make that happen, so I cannot guarantee that it will be there when you retire. Best - though not perfect - defense is to vote Democratic.
wizardzz wrote:
If the SS surplus helps us get out of debt
How might I put this delicately - oh never mind that. Here's what I have to say about that - FUCK YOU! I've paid into SS all my life and I see no reason why that money should be stolen so that rich people can have tax cuts. If you want to balance the budget then you're going to have to pay higher taxes. I'm ready to. Recind the bush tax cuts.
Why exactly do you think that making some people pay a larger share of what they earn than other people is fairer than asking everyone to pay the same share? Why shouldn't the guy making $20K pay $2,000, if the guy making $200,000 is paying $20,000? I do understand that the 49 percent of American citizens who don't pay income tax thanks to their tax breaks are all in favor of raising taxes on the folks who are already looking at a tax rate, after tax breaks of around 35% of everything they make being paid to city, state and national governments, but how, exactly do you justify it? TANSTAAFL
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Why exactly do you think that making some people pay a larger share of what they earn than other people is fairer than asking everyone to pay the same share? Why shouldn't the guy making $20K pay $2,000, if the guy making $200,000 is paying $20,000? I do understand that the 49 percent of American citizens who don't pay income tax thanks to their tax breaks are all in favor of raising taxes on the folks who are already looking at a tax rate, after tax breaks of around 35% of everything they make being paid to city, state and national governments, but how, exactly do you justify it? TANSTAAFL
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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I'm almost 30, and I learned in business school to not rely on social retirement programs in my lifetime, so what do you say to those of us, like myself, who will pay into it for 30+ years, and likely never benefit? It's just as unfair as raising the retirement age now. If the SS surplus helps us get out of debt, then I say do as you may with it.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
I learned in business school. . . .If the SS surplus helps us get out of debt, then I say do as you may with it.
In business school they taught you not to pay your debts? The Social Security Trust Fund is 2.5 trillion dollars worth of Treasury bills backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. The Savings Bonds that your father may have purchased for you when you were a kid and the T-Bills we've been selling to China, Japan and Europe are also back by the full faith and credit of the U.S. If the U.S. was to default on any of its bonds, it would be in at least technical default. That includes refusing to redeem the pay-on-demand bonds held by the SS Trust Fund, just as much as those held by China. In addition, one quarter of all payroll taxes (used to be 1/3rd until Obama cut it) is earmarked by law to be used to cover Social Security benefits with the excess deposited into the trust fund. You are right to be pissed off because every President from Reagan onwards has spent the money paid into the Trust Fund and replaced it with I.O.U.s that are now coming due. Obama's stimulus, Bush's wars, Clinton's balanced budget, and everything back to S.D.I and the Department of Education was paid for by siphoning out the money paid into Social Security as fast as it was paid in. However, to pretend that you, or your generation, did not benefit from the raiding of Social Security in so very many ways, is to deny verifiable facts and head off into never-never-land.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Dalek Dave wrote:
then raise taxes and cut loopholes.
As long as we continue to tax production rather than consumption, we are fucked. The reason our Congress will never adopt a Fair Tax[^] is because it treats everyone equally. Our government is all about playing favorites. That's why my brother-in-law who runs a small business pays 39% on his company profits while Jeffrey Immelt, friend of Obama and head of G.E., pays no corporate taxes at all. I am all in favor of eliminating loopholes, but most folks consider tax breaks only for people or organizations they don't approve of to be "loopholes." We need to eliminate the homeowners mortgage loophole, and the charitable organization loophole. We need to dump the oil loopholes and the green energy loopholes. We need to tax hedge-fund managers in exactly the same way that we take plumbers. We also need to tax farmers in exactly the same way as we do plumbers.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Have you ever gone over politicians' or otherwise wealthy or powerful individuals' tax returns? I'm not saying illegally, many are public. It's absolutely amazing.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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wizardzz wrote:
I learned in business school. . . .If the SS surplus helps us get out of debt, then I say do as you may with it.
In business school they taught you not to pay your debts? The Social Security Trust Fund is 2.5 trillion dollars worth of Treasury bills backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. The Savings Bonds that your father may have purchased for you when you were a kid and the T-Bills we've been selling to China, Japan and Europe are also back by the full faith and credit of the U.S. If the U.S. was to default on any of its bonds, it would be in at least technical default. That includes refusing to redeem the pay-on-demand bonds held by the SS Trust Fund, just as much as those held by China. In addition, one quarter of all payroll taxes (used to be 1/3rd until Obama cut it) is earmarked by law to be used to cover Social Security benefits with the excess deposited into the trust fund. You are right to be pissed off because every President from Reagan onwards has spent the money paid into the Trust Fund and replaced it with I.O.U.s that are now coming due. Obama's stimulus, Bush's wars, Clinton's balanced budget, and everything back to S.D.I and the Department of Education was paid for by siphoning out the money paid into Social Security as fast as it was paid in. However, to pretend that you, or your generation, did not benefit from the raiding of Social Security in so very many ways, is to deny verifiable facts and head off into never-never-land.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
In business school they taught you not to pay your debts?
The Social Security Trust Fund is 2.5 trillion dollars worth of Treasury bills backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. The Savings Bonds that your father may have purchased for you when you were a kid and the T-Bills we've been selling to China, Japan and Europe are also back by the full faith and credit of the U.S.Well they typically teach you to gut or ditch a program that is destined to collapse. The only reason TBills are worth anything is the game of chicken between China and the Fed. When that stimulus is gone, the value won't maintain without rates adjusting to cause a good amount of inflation. When they ease off Quantitative Easing, that will be the shit hitting the fan.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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Oakman wrote:
In business school they taught you not to pay your debts?
The Social Security Trust Fund is 2.5 trillion dollars worth of Treasury bills backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. The Savings Bonds that your father may have purchased for you when you were a kid and the T-Bills we've been selling to China, Japan and Europe are also back by the full faith and credit of the U.S.Well they typically teach you to gut or ditch a program that is destined to collapse. The only reason TBills are worth anything is the game of chicken between China and the Fed. When that stimulus is gone, the value won't maintain without rates adjusting to cause a good amount of inflation. When they ease off Quantitative Easing, that will be the shit hitting the fan.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
Well they typically teach you to gut or ditch a program that is destined to collapse.
Well, I have never been to B-school, but on the other hand I've run two businesses, one a company and the other a corporation. As I remember it, in business, the way to get out from under paying your debts is to declare bankruptcy. Nations do the equivalent of this by defaulting on their debt - but usually they stiff their foreign investors first, then their own citizens. Why do you think we should let our citizens starve while paying off the Chinese?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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wizardzz wrote:
Well they typically teach you to gut or ditch a program that is destined to collapse.
Well, I have never been to B-school, but on the other hand I've run two businesses, one a company and the other a corporation. As I remember it, in business, the way to get out from under paying your debts is to declare bankruptcy. Nations do the equivalent of this by defaulting on their debt - but usually they stiff their foreign investors first, then their own citizens. Why do you think we should let our citizens starve while paying off the Chinese?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Bankruptcy grants you protection, and you can try to continue operating or not based on your financials / goals / etc. When you do try to continue operating, the strategy is often as I said; you ditch or gut the assets from programs that will become a liability, as our social security program will be...
Oakman wrote:
Why do you think we should let our citizens starve while paying off the Chinese?
What is the scenario in which I recommended this?
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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Have you ever gone over politicians' or otherwise wealthy or powerful individuals' tax returns? I'm not saying illegally, many are public. It's absolutely amazing.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
Have you ever gone over politicians' or otherwise wealthy or powerful individuals' tax returns? I'm not saying illegally, many are public. It's absolutely amazing.
They are the ones who can afford the bevy of lawyers, accountants and lobbyists that shift the tax burden to the middle class. Crony capitalism seems to be the new name for it, but the man who first defined it in detail called it "fascism." I see strong resemblances to what is going on now to what happened when the Roman Republic turned into the Roman Empire. Jeffrey Immelt, Bill Gates, Charlie Rangel, Tom Delay - all of them working to insure that their money and their power is not diluted or taxed while that of the middle class, especially the upper middle class that might otherwise move into the ranks of the rich, pay through the nose. Obama, for instance, talks about taxing the millionaires, but in truth, he's going after the upper middle class.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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I'm all for a progressive income tax. But that's not what I've been discussing in this thread.
Majerus wrote:
I'm all for a progressive income tax. But that's not what I've been discussing in this thread.
Actually, from the looks of it, we're supposed to be discussing my thoughts about the debt ceiling. Do you disagree? :laugh: You might, by the way, want to look up the difference between a fair tax, a flat tax, and a progressive tax. You seem to have gotten them confused.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Majerus wrote:
I'm all for a progressive income tax. But that's not what I've been discussing in this thread.
Actually, from the looks of it, we're supposed to be discussing my thoughts about the debt ceiling. Do you disagree? :laugh: You might, by the way, want to look up the difference between a fair tax, a flat tax, and a progressive tax. You seem to have gotten them confused.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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wizardzz wrote:
Have you ever gone over politicians' or otherwise wealthy or powerful individuals' tax returns? I'm not saying illegally, many are public. It's absolutely amazing.
They are the ones who can afford the bevy of lawyers, accountants and lobbyists that shift the tax burden to the middle class. Crony capitalism seems to be the new name for it, but the man who first defined it in detail called it "fascism." I see strong resemblances to what is going on now to what happened when the Roman Republic turned into the Roman Empire. Jeffrey Immelt, Bill Gates, Charlie Rangel, Tom Delay - all of them working to insure that their money and their power is not diluted or taxed while that of the middle class, especially the upper middle class that might otherwise move into the ranks of the rich, pay through the nose. Obama, for instance, talks about taxing the millionaires, but in truth, he's going after the upper middle class.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
I'm at a point where I'm sick of people actually thinking the Democratic Party is actually going to do anything that would tax the actual rich in our country. Republicans don't hide it, you know what you are getting, but Democrats pretending to give a shit and tricking our middle and lower classes to vote them in to stick it to the man, ugh, can't handle it.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
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wizardzz wrote:
Have you ever gone over politicians' or otherwise wealthy or powerful individuals' tax returns? I'm not saying illegally, many are public. It's absolutely amazing.
They are the ones who can afford the bevy of lawyers, accountants and lobbyists that shift the tax burden to the middle class. Crony capitalism seems to be the new name for it, but the man who first defined it in detail called it "fascism." I see strong resemblances to what is going on now to what happened when the Roman Republic turned into the Roman Empire. Jeffrey Immelt, Bill Gates, Charlie Rangel, Tom Delay - all of them working to insure that their money and their power is not diluted or taxed while that of the middle class, especially the upper middle class that might otherwise move into the ranks of the rich, pay through the nose. Obama, for instance, talks about taxing the millionaires, but in truth, he's going after the upper middle class.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Bankruptcy grants you protection, and you can try to continue operating or not based on your financials / goals / etc. When you do try to continue operating, the strategy is often as I said; you ditch or gut the assets from programs that will become a liability, as our social security program will be...
Oakman wrote:
Why do you think we should let our citizens starve while paying off the Chinese?
What is the scenario in which I recommended this?
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
Bankruptcy grants you protection
For a business not a nation. Countries have been invaded for not paying their debts.
wizardzz wrote:
the strategy is often as I said; you ditch or gut the assets from programs that will become a liability, as our social security program will be...
But sometimes the simplistic answer is not the right answer (in the real world, as opposed to B-School) There are been a number of proposals put forth that would make SS totally sound and that might require you to wait a few more years to benefit from it. It is relatively easy to spot the primary "problem" with social security. It's medicare. Starting in 1965, seniors began getting better health care. Almost immediately, the life expectancy of Americans began increasing and I believe it is about 15 years more than it used to be - which is 15 years more that everyone is collecting social security. The simplest solution, proposed by the Bowles-Simpson tax plan simply requires your age group to wait a couple of extra years to start collecting and puts the plan on an even keel for beyond your (expanded) life expectancy. If your B-school training tells you that it is better to cause the kind of financial upheavals that defaulting on the Social Security debt than to move the portal down the road a little bit, I'd suggest the college ripped you off.
wizardzz wrote:
What is the scenario in which I recommended this?
"If the SS surplus helps us get out of debt, then I say do as you may with it."
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.