The continuing saga of bad code [modified]
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
I think I generally agree. At the job I just left, I finally convinced my supervisor that we should migrate to C# from VB. (Oddly enough, only a couple of months before we both left, but there were other circumstances around that.) Anyway, in that discussion, I pointed out to him that for purposes of recruiting future talent, it is wrong to say that a particular C# developer is necessarily better than a particular VB developer. Either the developer has skill and is thorough and hs some brains or not, and good ones will be able to produce solid applications regardless of the language. However, in a general sense, I pointed out that C# developers tend to be more analytical and technically-oriented, and thus make better developers from a reliability standpoint. I tried to make a graphic representation of my idea with my hands: |----------- | C# developers | ------------| | | }----------- | VB developers | ------------| The point being that some VB developers are better than some C# developers (there are idiots everywhere), but in a general sense, using C# will attract better candidates. Of course, due to organizational bumbling, neither of us care any longer what they do, but that's another story.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
The language is irrelevant, whenever I've started someplace new there has always been a good supply of WTF in the source base whether it is perl, c, pascal, C#, VB, COBOL, x86 asm, Java, c++, etc, etc. First you have to decipher the mind set of those that came before, then all becomes clear. Long walks muttering to yourself also help. :)
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It won't hurt a bit. I promise.
Said the proctologist to the patient. :laugh:
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Jeremy Hutchinson wrote:
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from. In a simple example, if a sign were to read "No parking from 7am to 5pm", then that exception proves the rule that parking is allowed at other times. It's used in court cases to help establish right and wrong when the rules aren't necessarily clear. When you say "the exception proves the rule" when simply referring to a counter-example, then you're misusing the phrase.
Never forget: There's ALWAYS an exception to prove a rule. You might have to dig or fabricate it, but there will always be one. Accept this, and you will be on the fast track to management / politics!
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I disagree - I've got that crap in C# code..
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
And, which of the problems you detailed cannot be done in C#? You are blaming the tool? Because the craftsmen doen't know how to use it? Some of the C# programmers in my company have an aversion to using comments and error trapping/reporting. When I inherited a project from one C# programmer, I added comments and error trapping to all the procedures. Then I received an e-mail from the C# developer ridiculing me for modifying his code. He told me all that was unnecessary because the code worked.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
I have seen a ton of crap C# code as well. In fact the job I ran into at the last place was exactly like above. Code files pushed to server and then see if it ran as a test. No compile in VS. Sometimes a command line compile. They all used Notepad as their code editor and then copied and hoped it worked. It was all C#. Took me a month and a half to get it into VS and compile. First run thru on compile died and killed my machine. It was horrible. So yeah there is crap VB but there is Crap C#, Crap C++ and Crap PHP etc... VB is alittle more forgiving so there can be a wider range of crap. But in any of them you can do crap. Biggest difference I see is that in c++ you can actually kill yourself with Crap.
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
Blaming VB for bad code is like blaming English for someone speaking it badly. Both languages have their horrors and triumphs.
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Blaming VB for bad code is like blaming English for someone speaking it badly. Both languages have their horrors and triumphs.
You are the one assigning blame not me. I merely made an observation based on my own emperical evidence. Results may differ.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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And, which of the problems you detailed cannot be done in C#? You are blaming the tool? Because the craftsmen doen't know how to use it? Some of the C# programmers in my company have an aversion to using comments and error trapping/reporting. When I inherited a project from one C# programmer, I added comments and error trapping to all the procedures. Then I received an e-mail from the C# developer ridiculing me for modifying his code. He told me all that was unnecessary because the code worked.
You are the one assigning blame. I'm merely stating an opinion based on my own empirical evidence. Idiocy has no bounds in language or culture.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
A light disagreement here: VB6 and earlier certainly encouraged bad coding practice. I found it hard to keep my C/C++ chops in place against the spaghetti model of code made easy in VB 4 and 6. My VB6 was much improved when I thought in C++ and translated to VB6. On the other hand, VB.NET is much better. If people are writing VB6 style code they have to swim upstream to do it. That being said, when I migrated to .NET I decided to use C# and not learn a yet another new BASIC.
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Jeremy Hutchinson wrote:
Right, the exception that proves the rule. <- how is that even a saying, it really doesn't make sense if you think about it so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from. In a simple example, if a sign were to read "No parking from 7am to 5pm", then that exception proves the rule that parking is allowed at other times. It's used in court cases to help establish right and wrong when the rules aren't necessarily clear. When you say "the exception proves the rule" when simply referring to a counter-example, then you're misusing the phrase.
cmbergin wrote:
"The exception proves the rule" means that if an exception to a rule is specified, it proves the existence of a rule to be excepted from
Not quite! The issue is that the word 'prove' has changed meaning since the expression was created. Nowadays, we think of 'proof' as positive evidence; it used to mean 'test' (i.e. a case that will see if the rule actually holds up). So, a modern translation of the expression would be "the exception tests the veracity of the rule". The old meaning still persists in many places. For example, it is why even after you have proved a theorem, it is still a 'theorem', not a fact ... their may be other proofs / tests that could be applied. The expression "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" uses the same use of the word 'proof' - you have to test the food (by eating it) to see if it is good. Also, when you read a text before publishing, the text are called 'proofs' and the reading is called 'proof reading' - you are testing the text for errors, not proving that there are none. Dijkstra's quote [citation needed] that "Testing only proves the existence of bugs, not their absence" (other variants exist) uses the 'modern' use of the word 'proves', not its traditional meaning.
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You are the one assigning blame. I'm merely stating an opinion based on my own empirical evidence. Idiocy has no bounds in language or culture.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
Yes! I am correctly assigning blame to the programmer, not the tool. If you are not blaming VB, then why did you suggest that it be discontinued? Empirical evidence? My empirical evidence is that C# (and VB and PHP, etc.) programmers create poor programs. But, I don't conclude that those languages should be discontinued. It has nothing to do with the programming language.
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Yes! I am correctly assigning blame to the programmer, not the tool. If you are not blaming VB, then why did you suggest that it be discontinued? Empirical evidence? My empirical evidence is that C# (and VB and PHP, etc.) programmers create poor programs. But, I don't conclude that those languages should be discontinued. It has nothing to do with the programming language.
Why are you getting so upset over an opinion?
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Better News Corp, than News International ;)
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Would be nice if I were financially independent and could pick and choose the contracts, or just quit after starting and seeing the mess.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
without messes, there wouldn't be work...
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
you know, Python is a simple clean language and I really haven't seen many bad examples. The question is 'Why does VB attract bad coding?' Maybe because it's touted as the 'easier' way to program. I also started learning programming from VBA in MS Office and wrestled with what .net language I would learn to get involved in .net. I chose C# because it was too hard for me to grasp concepts in VB.net that were totally different from VBA. This could be similar to VB.net users in general. They don't get out of the box of VB 6 programming. Very procedural and functional.
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
Uh huh. And of course no one ever writes bad code in C# or C++, right? ;)
XAlan Burkhart
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OK, so I've gotten past the no source control and no dev database. Now to build the site and step through it...no so fast. VS reports so many errors it stops recording them. When asked, the response was, "We've never built the site". :wtf: How do you use it then? "We deploy it and let it compile on the server when someone hits it the first time". :wtf: Did I mention the huge monolithic classes, 400 lines in one page load event alone, no layers, hard coded business logic. Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB. :-D
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
modified on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:49 AM
VB is indeed the problem. Because when you start an application design with the decision to use VB, you know the rest of the design decisions will not be good. The only hope for a VB project is to involve someone who clearly doesn't want to be there.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Not to get into the religious debate about languages but everytime I run into VB projects this is the quality I find. Software development would be so much better if Microsoft would just discontinue VB.
If MS did away with VB those coders would code crap in C#, and then you would have no warning that it was going to be poorly written code. The way it is now, if you're called in on a VB project you can be fairly certain you are going to see horrors beyond comprehension. With C# you can expect it to be decent. There are exceptions in both languages of course, but by there definition exceptions are rare...
Even though I am not a VB coder (I prefer C#), there is a reason to celebrate VB! Let's keep C# clean.