PayPal and Visa are dicks.
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Amazingly enough neither the laws or the universe, nor the laws of the United States were formulated to make you (or me) feel good. Believing that everything you personally disapprove of should be banned by law is not necessarily the best methodology for getting along in the world. I, for instance, disapprove of rhubarb pie.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Amazingly, I learned this when I was 3, or maybe younger. I don't just personally disapprove, a great injustice is being done. You will never notice this, but I hereby choose never to do any busyness with you, just because I can.
David1987 wrote:
a great injustice is being done.
Because they are exercising their rights?
David1987 wrote:
but I hereby choose never to do any busyness with you, just because I can.
A grave injustice is being done. You are obviously a terrible man and deserve to be imprisoned immediately.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
So they have the right to completely wreck you economically for no reason. That can't be considered a good thing.
Huh? No, they simply have a right not to do business with you. If you think you absolutely need Paypal to stay in business, it behooves you not to do things that piss them off. That can mean not publishing the names and addresses of American spies, it can mean not selling child pornography, and it can mean not funneling money to terrorist organizations like the one that just attacked your government. Note that they are not preventing you from doing any of those things, they are simply refusing to help you. As an American company, that is still their right. The good news is that no-one is forcing you to do business with them. There are other credit card companies. It's called freedom.
David1987 wrote:
That can't be considered a good thing.
Not if you are Wikileaks. But TANSTAAFL is a lesson everybody learns sooner or later - unless they starve to death first.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
Note that they are not preventing you from doing any of those things, they are simply refusing to help you. As an American company, that is still their right. The good news is that no-one is forcing you to do business with them. There are other credit card companies. It's called freedom.
I don't understand that. First I don't know where you live but if Visa, MasterCard, Amex and Discover all say that I can't use a credit card there there is no other choice. None. So exactly what are you referring to when you say "There are other credit card companies". Second my credit card business is NOT with Visa/Mastercard even though that is on my credit cards. It is with the bank that issued those cards. Those are the companies that I have a relationship with. It is the same with a merchant - the person that gets money from a credit card. Every merchant is serviced by a bank. And only a bank. Now if one bank doesn't want to do business with you then you do have other choices. But if all financial institutions refuse to deal with you then there are no choices left.
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Oakman wrote:
Note that they are not preventing you from doing any of those things, they are simply refusing to help you. As an American company, that is still their right. The good news is that no-one is forcing you to do business with them. There are other credit card companies. It's called freedom.
I don't understand that. First I don't know where you live but if Visa, MasterCard, Amex and Discover all say that I can't use a credit card there there is no other choice. None. So exactly what are you referring to when you say "There are other credit card companies". Second my credit card business is NOT with Visa/Mastercard even though that is on my credit cards. It is with the bank that issued those cards. Those are the companies that I have a relationship with. It is the same with a merchant - the person that gets money from a credit card. Every merchant is serviced by a bank. And only a bank. Now if one bank doesn't want to do business with you then you do have other choices. But if all financial institutions refuse to deal with you then there are no choices left.
jschell wrote:
I don't understand that.
Yep. You are talking about a consumer using a card. I am talking about a business asking a company to process payments for it. When you use a credit card, you are asking a company to pay someone else their money and promising to pay them back. When a business asks Paypal (or Visa) to act as its agent and collect money from its customers, it is hiring them to do a job. They have the right to refuse to work for you, just as you have the right to refuse to work for me.
jschell wrote:
But if all financial institutions refuse to deal with you then there are no choices left.
Then don't piss off Paypal and Visa. If they don't like you, they won't work for you.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
modified on Friday, July 22, 2011 5:18 PM
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First wikileaks, now other random sites they just don't like. Yes, that means your site, because they just don't like your face. How come they get to financially kill whoever the hell they want without due process or ANY chance of defending oneself?
David I work for an organisation that supplies drugs to (pick a country), traffics in humans and kills baby seals, we need a person with your skills would you work for us! At this point you can excercise your right to refuse to work with said organisation b/c you do not like their ethics, if you are the only person with your skills you can still refuse to work with them. Why should there be a law that forces you to work for this organisation? You see where this is going! I agree with you that PayPal are arseholes but not for the same reason, they have their own grey ethical areas!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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David1987 wrote:
a great injustice is being done.
Because they are exercising their rights?
David1987 wrote:
but I hereby choose never to do any busyness with you, just because I can.
A grave injustice is being done. You are obviously a terrible man and deserve to be imprisoned immediately.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David I work for an organisation that supplies drugs to (pick a country), traffics in humans and kills baby seals, we need a person with your skills would you work for us! At this point you can excercise your right to refuse to work with said organisation b/c you do not like their ethics, if you are the only person with your skills you can still refuse to work with them. Why should there be a law that forces you to work for this organisation? You see where this is going! I agree with you that PayPal are arseholes but not for the same reason, they have their own grey ethical areas!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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jschell wrote:
I don't understand that.
Yep. You are talking about a consumer using a card. I am talking about a business asking a company to process payments for it. When you use a credit card, you are asking a company to pay someone else their money and promising to pay them back. When a business asks Paypal (or Visa) to act as its agent and collect money from its customers, it is hiring them to do a job. They have the right to refuse to work for you, just as you have the right to refuse to work for me.
jschell wrote:
But if all financial institutions refuse to deal with you then there are no choices left.
Then don't piss off Paypal and Visa. If they don't like you, they won't work for you.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
modified on Friday, July 22, 2011 5:18 PM
Oakman wrote:
Then don't piss off Paypal and Visa. If they don't like you, they won't work for you.
They are pissed off just because they don't like your face. What are you going to do about that? The wikileaks case I might understand, but the sites they're targeting now, no.
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David1987 wrote:
They don't have any good reason
Ya think, while it is just possible that someone in the govt leaned on them I think Wikileaks pissed off someone fairly high up the food chain and they pulled the plug on them. Imagine if Oakman was in the senior management, I could see him retaliating in such a way when someone attacks his ideals!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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David1987 wrote:
They don't have any good reason
Ya think, while it is just possible that someone in the govt leaned on them I think Wikileaks pissed off someone fairly high up the food chain and they pulled the plug on them. Imagine if Oakman was in the senior management, I could see him retaliating in such a way when someone attacks his ideals!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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David1987 wrote:
And that isn't a good reason
We obviously differ in that opinion, I think if someone pisses me off enough then I would have no compunction retailiating in such a way!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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David1987 wrote:
And that isn't a good reason
We obviously differ in that opinion, I think if someone pisses me off enough then I would have no compunction retailiating in such a way!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
It's very unprofessional IMO. Of course in private that wouldn't be a problem. But come on, they could decide to refuse to process payments to/from everyone who voted a certain way, for example. And PayPal could delete your account and eat all the credit because you were dating the daughter of one of the top managers but you cheated on her. Personal vendetta's have no place there.
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Oakman wrote:
Because they are exercising their rights?
In this case, yes. They shouldn't have that right.
David1987 wrote:
They shouldn't have that right.
Should you? Should the government force you to work for me if you don't like me or what I do? How do you feel about out and out slavery?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
They shouldn't have that right.
Should you? Should the government force you to work for me if you don't like me or what I do? How do you feel about out and out slavery?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
I should be forced to have a good reason.
Really? And who gets to decide what a good reason for you to refuse to work for me is, if not you? Who gets to decide who PayPal works for if not PayPal? Would you perhaps have the government decide it? Really? Men who have been anointed with public office after running campaigns that are better suited to snake oil marketing, deciding what jobs you can take (and presumably then, what jobs you cannot)? Do you want these extremely fallible and usually not very bright people deciding what time you get up and what time you go to bed, as well?
David1987 wrote:
It's obviously not slavery.
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
They don't have any good reason
Ya think, while it is just possible that someone in the govt leaned on them I think Wikileaks pissed off someone fairly high up the food chain and they pulled the plug on them. Imagine if Oakman was in the senior management, I could see him retaliating in such a way when someone attacks his ideals!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Imagine if Oakman was in the senior management, I could see him retaliating in such a way when someone attacks his ideals!
So you think I have the right to say, "I don't want to work for you!"? I'll bet David really agrees. He just hasn't thought it through and is responding emotionally because he think Wikileaks are white hats so they should get special favors.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
I should be forced to have a good reason.
Really? And who gets to decide what a good reason for you to refuse to work for me is, if not you? Who gets to decide who PayPal works for if not PayPal? Would you perhaps have the government decide it? Really? Men who have been anointed with public office after running campaigns that are better suited to snake oil marketing, deciding what jobs you can take (and presumably then, what jobs you cannot)? Do you want these extremely fallible and usually not very bright people deciding what time you get up and what time you go to bed, as well?
David1987 wrote:
It's obviously not slavery.
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
At the very least, you should have the opportunity to take me to court and force me to do my job. Unless of course my defense is convincing. It's not unreasonable at all.
Oakman wrote:
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
No. You could just quit. But you couldn't refuse service just because my last name is kind of funny. It's absolutely ridiculous that you can now.
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David1987 wrote:
I should be forced to have a good reason.
Really? And who gets to decide what a good reason for you to refuse to work for me is, if not you? Who gets to decide who PayPal works for if not PayPal? Would you perhaps have the government decide it? Really? Men who have been anointed with public office after running campaigns that are better suited to snake oil marketing, deciding what jobs you can take (and presumably then, what jobs you cannot)? Do you want these extremely fallible and usually not very bright people deciding what time you get up and what time you go to bed, as well?
David1987 wrote:
It's obviously not slavery.
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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At the very least, you should have the opportunity to take me to court and force me to do my job. Unless of course my defense is convincing. It's not unreasonable at all.
Oakman wrote:
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
No. You could just quit. But you couldn't refuse service just because my last name is kind of funny. It's absolutely ridiculous that you can now.
David1987 wrote:
At the very least, you should have the opportunity to take me to court and force me to do my job
Awhile back that was the law of the land here in the U.S. In a famous decision called the Dred Scott case, the Supreme Court said that an escaped slave could be forced to return with his erstwhile owner, even if the slave was living in a state that had outlawed slavery. This concept, and that decision, occasioned a terrible war here in the U.S. but at that point it was established that any person had the right to say "I quit," unless he-she has signed a no-quit contract, and that usually requires penalties to be paid, not a return to bondage.
David1987 wrote:
You could just quit.
David1987 wrote:
But you couldn't refuse service just because my last name is kind of funny
These two statements are contradictory. If I can "just quit," as a freeman should be able to do then I have every right to refuse to hire on in the first place, because I don't like your name, or the color of your hair or any other reason. If you can force me to do so then I am a slave. You realize, I hope that you are arguing against the right to strike, a position taken in this country only by conservatives, and then, only regarding government workers. Would you, I wonder, feel that Paypal had the right to force your business to keep conducting transactions with them if you chose not to, or is this a case of turnabout not being fair play?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
I should be forced to have a good reason.
Really? And who gets to decide what a good reason for you to refuse to work for me is, if not you? Who gets to decide who PayPal works for if not PayPal? Would you perhaps have the government decide it? Really? Men who have been anointed with public office after running campaigns that are better suited to snake oil marketing, deciding what jobs you can take (and presumably then, what jobs you cannot)? Do you want these extremely fallible and usually not very bright people deciding what time you get up and what time you go to bed, as well?
David1987 wrote:
It's obviously not slavery.
The single difference between a slave and a freeman is the right to say, "I quit," and that is the right you wish to take away.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.