PayPal and Visa are dicks.
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It's on torrentfreak somewhere IIRC.
Oakman wrote:
such a statement injures neither your reputation nor your standing in the community
Hence "borders on". learn2readplz? edit: on the other hand, you could be in violation of bullet 3 of section 12 of the codeproject ToS. Of course only a moderator could decide whether you actually are, but if you get any more offensive I might just ask them to take a look.. edit2: or to put that in your language, what part of bullet 3 of section 12 of the codeproject ToS do you not understand?
Oakman wrote:
If your feelings bruise easily, you should stay out of internet forums.
My feelings don't bruise. I'm arguing. And unlike you I don't typically resort to insults and sneaky defamation in an attempt to win, because ad hominem is a logical fallacy.
modified on Saturday, July 23, 2011 1:29 PM
David1987 wrote:
edit: on the other hand, you could be in violation of bullet 3 of section 12 of the codeproject ToS. Of course only a moderator could decide whether you actually are, but if you get any more offensive I might just ask them to take a look..
By all means, do, you pompous little twit.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
edit: on the other hand, you could be in violation of bullet 3 of section 12 of the codeproject ToS. Of course only a moderator could decide whether you actually are, but if you get any more offensive I might just ask them to take a look..
By all means, do, you pompous little twit.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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ict558 wrote:
For whom, specifically, has a public official told you cannot work?
They never did such a thing to me. They did however tell that to a child-rapist who wanted to work at a kindergarten. And many companies are not allowed to do busyness with certain entities in for example Syria.
David1987 wrote:
They did however tell that to a child-rapist who wanted to work at a kindergarten.
You're a very silly man[^], and I'm not going to talk to you. :)
The 1-legged bar stool of understanding is supported by booze. Equipped with that, I know everything, and the rest of you are just a bunch of ignorant peasants with dung on your boots. A R G H
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See, I thought you were an adult. But now I have my doubts. (see, I can play this game too, it's just pointless) Come on kid, we were having a discussion. I have no actually interest in stopping it. Just trying to push it back into line.
David1987 wrote:
we were having a discussion
Anytime someone decides that since he's lost the argument, he'll resort to threats, however childish, laughable and meaningless, it's not a discussion.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
we were having a discussion
Anytime someone decides that since he's lost the argument, he'll resort to threats, however childish, laughable and meaningless, it's not a discussion.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Nice try, but the same goes for insults, and you started that. Now, are you going go on with the discussion or what? Not that there's much point though, you clearly believe in freedom as the highest good including the freedom to screw people over without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
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Nice try, but the same goes for insults, and you started that. Now, are you going go on with the discussion or what? Not that there's much point though, you clearly believe in freedom as the highest good including the freedom to screw people over without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
David1987 wrote:
you clearly believe in freedom as the highest good including the freedom to screw people over without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
OMG!!! I am sure that's libelous, or maybe it's slander! Quick,quick, send an email to Chris and complain that someone is being a meanie!!! Or maybe call out the National Guard? Write to the United Nations? Ask Allah to strike him dead??? A world where I can be insulted is not a just world! Ohmeohmy! :(( Buzz off, kid. I have something important to do now - I just emptied the dryer and I have to sort socks which is a much higher priority than trying to help you to reason.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
you clearly believe in freedom as the highest good including the freedom to screw people over without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
OMG!!! I am sure that's libelous, or maybe it's slander! Quick,quick, send an email to Chris and complain that someone is being a meanie!!! Or maybe call out the National Guard? Write to the United Nations? Ask Allah to strike him dead??? A world where I can be insulted is not a just world! Ohmeohmy! :(( Buzz off, kid. I have something important to do now - I just emptied the dryer and I have to sort socks which is a much higher priority than trying to help you to reason.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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Actually no. The case of wikileaks I can sort of understand. Not completely, but I see their point. They are now however targeting random others that did not hurt the US in any way. edit: also, your post borders on libel.
David1987 wrote:
They are now however targeting random others that did not hurt the US in any way.
Well, they targeted Bradley Manning, by suspending his Action Group's account, and then immediately reinstating it. Apparently PayPal considers the act of (allegedly) betraying one's country to be less of an offence than its (alleged) encouragement, facilitation, and instruction by Wikileaks, which remains suspended. (Somewhat ironically, most of my Googled results were the 'right to refuse service' clauses of the companies using PayPal.)
The 1-legged bar stool of understanding is supported by booze. Equipped with that, I know everything, and the rest of you are just a bunch of ignorant peasants with dung on your boots. A R G H
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David1987 wrote:
They are now however targeting random others that did not hurt the US in any way.
Well, they targeted Bradley Manning, by suspending his Action Group's account, and then immediately reinstating it. Apparently PayPal considers the act of (allegedly) betraying one's country to be less of an offence than its (alleged) encouragement, facilitation, and instruction by Wikileaks, which remains suspended. (Somewhat ironically, most of my Googled results were the 'right to refuse service' clauses of the companies using PayPal.)
The 1-legged bar stool of understanding is supported by booze. Equipped with that, I know everything, and the rest of you are just a bunch of ignorant peasants with dung on your boots. A R G H
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Mycroft Holmes wrote:
Imagine if Oakman was in the senior management, I could see him retaliating in such a way when someone attacks his ideals!
So you think I have the right to say, "I don't want to work for you!"? I'll bet David really agrees. He just hasn't thought it through and is responding emotionally because he think Wikileaks are white hats so they should get special favors.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Of course and I personally have done that, refused a contract b/c I did not agree with the ethics of a company (Andersons Consulting). It's just that you are one of the more polarised/outspoken personalities on CP and even David can probably see you responding in this way.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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Of course and I personally have done that, refused a contract b/c I did not agree with the ethics of a company (Andersons Consulting). It's just that you are one of the more polarised/outspoken personalities on CP and even David can probably see you responding in this way.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
It's just that you are one of the more polarised/outspoken personalities on CP and even David can probably see you responding in this way.
In my defense, no matter how far back you go, you will see that when I am the OP in this forum, I have been posting non-inflammatory tidbits, jokes, and generally innocuous concepts. I save my political and economic diatribes for Soapbox 1. However, when someone posts something like the OP of this thread, I have trouble keeping my mouth shut. Some of us are blessed with the persona of Mike, I am stuck with that of Mannie. :sigh:
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
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David1987 wrote:
you clearly believe in freedom as the highest good including the freedom to screw people over without giving them a chance to defend themselves.
OMG!!! I am sure that's libelous, or maybe it's slander! Quick,quick, send an email to Chris and complain that someone is being a meanie!!! Or maybe call out the National Guard? Write to the United Nations? Ask Allah to strike him dead??? A world where I can be insulted is not a just world! Ohmeohmy! :(( Buzz off, kid. I have something important to do now - I just emptied the dryer and I have to sort socks which is a much higher priority than trying to help you to reason.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
I'm posting this to both parties involved in this primary school playground spat: I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are both mature, sensible adults in real life. As such: Let it go. Drop it and walk away. Agree to disagree, shake hands and apologise, or take it offline. Whatever. But not here.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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I'm posting this to both parties involved in this primary school playground spat: I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are both mature, sensible adults in real life. As such: Let it go. Drop it and walk away. Agree to disagree, shake hands and apologise, or take it offline. Whatever. But not here.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Great, the freedom to screw whoever you want. What ever happened to protecting the many from the few?
Oakman wrote:
There are other credit card companies
Yes, they're all doing the same thing, I just excluded them to keep the title short.
Oakman wrote:
Not if you are Wikileaks
Or, you know, anyone. They could pick me next. Or you. And there would be nothing you could do about it. It's not just that they're not doing busyness with criminals, they're not doing busyness with whomever they have a personal dislike for.
David1987 wrote:
Or, you know, anyone. They could pick me next. Or you. And there would be nothing you could do about it. It's not just that they're not doing busyness with criminals, they're not doing busyness with whomever they have a personal dislike for.
Is there some reason why a private entity like PayPal or Visa should be required to do business with those of whom they do not approve? What would you prefer? That government should step in (again) and write a few thousand (more) pages of regulations and force businesses to do business with criminals?
XAlan Burkhart
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David1987 wrote:
Or, you know, anyone. They could pick me next. Or you. And there would be nothing you could do about it. It's not just that they're not doing busyness with criminals, they're not doing busyness with whomever they have a personal dislike for.
Is there some reason why a private entity like PayPal or Visa should be required to do business with those of whom they do not approve? What would you prefer? That government should step in (again) and write a few thousand (more) pages of regulations and force businesses to do business with criminals?
XAlan Burkhart
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No. You should be able to complain when they wrongfully cut you off. If you're a criminal there's no way your complaint is going to do anything.
David1987 wrote:
No. You should be able to complain when they wrongfully cut you off. If you're a criminal there's no way your complaint is going to do anything.
Most US businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, as long as civil rights laws are not violated. PayPal and Visa have that right. If one feels that his rights have been violated by such an exclusion, then he can sue the offending business. Like it or not, things go better when businesses can choose to exclude certain customers. It's called freedom.
XAlan Burkhart
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David1987 wrote:
No. You should be able to complain when they wrongfully cut you off. If you're a criminal there's no way your complaint is going to do anything.
Most US businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, as long as civil rights laws are not violated. PayPal and Visa have that right. If one feels that his rights have been violated by such an exclusion, then he can sue the offending business. Like it or not, things go better when businesses can choose to exclude certain customers. It's called freedom.
XAlan Burkhart
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Again with the "freedom"? Ok so lets start a debit card company, and when the total value in the accounts of all customers reaches 1 billion or so, cancel all accounts and retire as a billionaire. Because that's freedom, right?
David1987 wrote:
Ok so lets start a debit card company, and when the total value in the accounts of all customers reaches 1 billion or so, cancel all accounts and retire as a billionaire. Because that's freedom, right?
Sure, you can cancel the accounts. If your customers are banks, they'll just provide cards for their account holders from another company. If customers have accounts set up with you directly and money in those accounts, you'll have to return their money when you fold the company. You'll get to keep whatever interest you've earned above what you're contractually obligated to pay your customers, but that's it. What point were you trying to make here?
XAlan Burkhart
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jschell wrote:
I don't understand that.
Yep. You are talking about a consumer using a card. I am talking about a business asking a company to process payments for it. When you use a credit card, you are asking a company to pay someone else their money and promising to pay them back. When a business asks Paypal (or Visa) to act as its agent and collect money from its customers, it is hiring them to do a job. They have the right to refuse to work for you, just as you have the right to refuse to work for me.
jschell wrote:
But if all financial institutions refuse to deal with you then there are no choices left.
Then don't piss off Paypal and Visa. If they don't like you, they won't work for you.
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
modified on Friday, July 22, 2011 5:18 PM
Oakman wrote:
Yep. You are talking about a consumer using a card. I am talking about a business asking a company to process payments for it.
The "company" that process payments for a merchant is not 'Visa' nor 'Mastercard'. It is a processor like FDC.
Oakman wrote:
When a business asks Paypal (or Visa) to act as its agent and collect money from its customers
No. That isn't how it works. No one, not small businesses nor even companies like Walmart, interact with 'Visa'/'Mastercard'. They interact with their bank and with a processor. The processor, not 'Vis'/'Mastercard' is in a direct relationship with the merchant. And for many small businesses even that isnt true. Instead they go through some other business which proxies the processing via yet another provider. So in the worst case it would be similar to if you could not have internet service at work because the backbone providers decided that they didn't like you. And that then rolled down hill to the ISP, perhaps via another reseller and then into your companies service. And this analogy follows to the extent that you do NOT have a business relationship of any sort with the backbone. And the same is true for a merchant. They do NOT have a business relationship with 'Visa'/'Mastercard'. (And note that I am specifically not talking about Amex/Discover here.)
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David1987 wrote:
They shouldn't have that right.
Should you? Should the government force you to work for me if you don't like me or what I do? How do you feel about out and out slavery?
The 3-legged stool of understanding is held up by history, languages, and mathematics. Equipped with these three you can learn anything you want to learn. But if you lack any one of them you are just another ignorant peasant with dung on your boots. R. A. H.
Oakman wrote:
Should you? Should the government force you to work for me if you don't like me or what I do? How do you feel about out and out slavery?
Specious argument. You are a single individual. Payment processing is a significant financial instrument with a vast impact. Based your argument Visa/Mastercard should have the right to completely shutdown tomorrow if they felt like it. A better analogy would be if you could not work at all unless the government approved it. And that right was strictly enforced as well (not haphazardly.) And your right to work would be removed if the government was investigating you for anything.