How many hours is an optimal work week? And how much do you put in?
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
I always make sure my contract exactly defines the worling hours and that's what I work; no more, no less, no argumnet. If they want more and are willing to pay then no problem. What I can't abide are employers that sign a contract stating the hours and then expect you to work extra fro nothing. Try getting a plumber or lawyer to do 2 more hours and not expect to get paid. It's called taking the piss.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me
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Great response. This is more along the lines of what I wanted to hear. And yes, productivity's worst challenger is constant interruptions and meeting-itis. I wrote a post about this a few monts ago here[^] describing what I think about meetings. In some jobs for me it looks like some people only meet to justify that they are working. A guy in Microsoft (where I worked as a vendor for 7 years) once told me "to look busy always hold a bunch of papers and walk around. People think you are busy going from meeting to meeting and working". Very sad! But true! And I saw the guy walking around holding some papers from time to time, strategically near his manager.
My new toy: www.cloudclipx.com -- If I have 8 hours to chop down a tree, I spend 6 sharpening my ax!
A few years ago, a company I was working for went through a series of company-wide lay-offs, where each department had to pick two people to let go. I was coming in at 6am, and leaving at 6pm. Yes - 12 hour days, and with no compensation for the extra hours - trying to meet an impossible schedule. I was essentially the team lead for the project, and was the only one putting in the extra time, and the reason they laid me off was because I was "the new guy". From what I understand, the product I was working on which was supposed to be completed by May of 2010, just recently (a month or two ago) entered the beta-test phase.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997 -
Walt, I guess I didn't explain myself or the question could go both ways. My original thinking was "what do you think is the optimal work week in terms of PRODUCTIVITY". If you work 80 hours one week, is it really as productive as working 60 and then putting an extra effort the next week. And about your comment, I am on your side. I really love where I am working now, I actually just got an offer that involved a LOT of money (my standards, at least) and rejected it because I like more where I am now.
Well, I guess I didn't exp[lain myself very well, either. If you're having a good a time, should you stop? What about if you're getting paid to have a good time? Why should I put a time limit on my enjoyment? Do you think I accomplish less while having a good time for an extended period of time? In other words, if I'm getting paid to enjoy myself, why should I even worry about whether there's an optimal time?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Extensive research carried out during the first third of the prior century found that for any job where worker output could be readily quantified that over the long term output/employee was maximized at ~40 hours/week. Above that point cumulative fatigue ends up costing more in terms of slower work and increased errors than the additional hours of work add. The fatigue compounds fairly rapidly too. Take two people working 40/week and bump one of them up to 60. The guy doing 60 will initially surge ahead but as fatigue mounts his lead begins shrinking fast until after about 2 months the guy doing a steady 40 overtakes the guy doing 60 in total product completed. Even if the guy doing 60hours drops back to 40 it will take a period of rest and recovery before his daily output recovers. IMO it's the height of hubris to think that because our industry doesn't allow easily quantification of output that it's somehow different than anything else. As a result, while deadline problems do occasionally require working extra hours, any business that routinely expects people to work well over 40 hours has major management problems.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
Well I guess that answers why I'm so stressed out right now. I think I have gone overboard with the working hours.
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
I do a 37.5 hour week. My optimal work week is 20 hours. :-D
Pete
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
There's a reason that the traditional working week is 5 times 8 hours – if you consistently try to do more than that, you lose focus and concentration and work less effectively. (And I don't just mean making too many posts in the Lounge.) For short periods it can be done and done well, but 8 hours is about the most that can be sustained for a long time. The optimal, of course, is 0 – work is something that one does because one needs money. Even with a normal working week (we have 5×7½) it is surprising how little time there is for other things during the week. From a productivity point of view, somewhere between 35 and 50, depending on the person, I would say.
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I think the more interesting question is, do you have an employer that recognizes when a creative process means not necessarily sitting in front of the computer 8 hrs a day, and also, when you put in those 80 hr work weeks, do you get some decent recognition? Marc
Don't you use any fiddle for productive hours - when we're calculating out workloads we use a fiddle factor of between 50% and 70% for productive time and accept that the other 30 to 50% covers emails / research / thought / etc etc. I think in one of the TED talks I heard someone quote that some of the Scrums in google use as low as 30% productive time, so that they have time for good ideas... EDIT: to answer the OP usually around 40ish occasionally up to 70 but if it's more the rule that people are working that number of hours then I think it's counter-productive and we would look at the work load of that team.
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There's a reason that the traditional working week is 5 times 8 hours – if you consistently try to do more than that, you lose focus and concentration and work less effectively. (And I don't just mean making too many posts in the Lounge.) For short periods it can be done and done well, but 8 hours is about the most that can be sustained for a long time. The optimal, of course, is 0 – work is something that one does because one needs money. Even with a normal working week (we have 5×7½) it is surprising how little time there is for other things during the week. From a productivity point of view, somewhere between 35 and 50, depending on the person, I would say.
My company operates a standard week of 35 hours, but we get flexi time so I might work a bit longer one week, then have a couple of long lunches or early finishes the next week. I tend to average around 37 hours as I can have a day off each month if I build up enough flexi time (ie. 7 hours). :) I'm not sure how long I'd say an optimal work week would be, any amount of time spent at work is time that I could be using to do something else, but I kind of need to get paid! :sigh:
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
I'd say on average about 43 hours a week, and about 70% of that time is coding or working on system/network issues. I work for a small business so I'm in the position of doing programming, help desk, network/system upgrades and all the other jobs that normally someone else would do in a large company. What can I say Jack of All Trades Master of None :cool: The other 30% of my week is spent doing what most do, reading, researching, thinking and spacing out because I'm tired from doing everything else. :laugh:
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
Our work week, since the day I started working here has been 37.5 hour, or a 7.5 hour work day. Beginning next month we will begin having to work full 40 hour work weeks, or 8.0 hour work days. Not that it matters to me. I usually work through lunch. Now I'll just start making sure that I take a full hour for lunch every day, even if I have to find a corner to hide in. The only benefit of this is that we'll get to take all of spring break off instead of just Friday of that week. Our policy is that no one can work overtime without the permission of their supervisor and the agreement of the employee. However, IT is exempt from this policy. We work the regular work week unless overtime is necessary to keep the systems available to everyone. Optimal? About twenty hours for my health.
I'm not a programmer but I play one at the office
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
Officially: 40h Reality: 50h Optimally: 0h
"To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" - Homer Simpson
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Don't you use any fiddle for productive hours - when we're calculating out workloads we use a fiddle factor of between 50% and 70% for productive time and accept that the other 30 to 50% covers emails / research / thought / etc etc. I think in one of the TED talks I heard someone quote that some of the Scrums in google use as low as 30% productive time, so that they have time for good ideas... EDIT: to answer the OP usually around 40ish occasionally up to 70 but if it's more the rule that people are working that number of hours then I think it's counter-productive and we would look at the work load of that team.
GStrad wrote:
Don't you use any fiddle for productive hours
In this company I used to work at years ago, an engineer friend of mine, Chuck Ross, used the "Ross Rule of PI" - multiply every time estimate by 3.14. He would usually be right--between software, hardware, and actual equipment manufacturing (the company made low light, multispectral, and high speed (at that time) cameras), he was usually right! Marc
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Well, I guess I didn't exp[lain myself very well, either. If you're having a good a time, should you stop? What about if you're getting paid to have a good time? Why should I put a time limit on my enjoyment? Do you think I accomplish less while having a good time for an extended period of time? In other words, if I'm getting paid to enjoy myself, why should I even worry about whether there's an optimal time?
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
Do you have children Walt? I used to think like you but once I had children aka I had to change my way of thinking. Nanny's go home and I need to be there if my wife is busy with something etc. I also owe it to them to spend time with them. I guess it's easy to not put a time limit on "work" if that's the thing you enjoy most and have no other responsibilities. When you have other things you have to do that luxury goes away unfortunately and you have to start budgeting your time appropriately. Sean
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Do you have children Walt? I used to think like you but once I had children aka I had to change my way of thinking. Nanny's go home and I need to be there if my wife is busy with something etc. I also owe it to them to spend time with them. I guess it's easy to not put a time limit on "work" if that's the thing you enjoy most and have no other responsibilities. When you have other things you have to do that luxury goes away unfortunately and you have to start budgeting your time appropriately. Sean
stiphy31 wrote:
Do you have children Walt?
3 children, 4 step children, 18 grand children. I was a single father and raised my 3 children alone. I never said anything about shirking responsibilities. Shame on anyone who does that! But most of the problem usually boils down to time management. I put in a lot of hours while my kids were sleeping and at school, but I was home with them every evening, and normally all weekend, etc. Later I started my own business and put in many, many hours, but they were older and I worked from home. My youngest daughter was my secretary while she was going to the university.
stiphy31 wrote:
and you have to start budgeting your time appropriately.
If most people cut out all the wasted time, they'd have time for all the important things.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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stiphy31 wrote:
Do you have children Walt?
3 children, 4 step children, 18 grand children. I was a single father and raised my 3 children alone. I never said anything about shirking responsibilities. Shame on anyone who does that! But most of the problem usually boils down to time management. I put in a lot of hours while my kids were sleeping and at school, but I was home with them every evening, and normally all weekend, etc. Later I started my own business and put in many, many hours, but they were older and I worked from home. My youngest daughter was my secretary while she was going to the university.
stiphy31 wrote:
and you have to start budgeting your time appropriately.
If most people cut out all the wasted time, they'd have time for all the important things.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E. Comport Computing Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
I have 2 boys under the age of 3, wasted time is not really something I have the luxury of these days! I am going to guess your children are grown now (18 grandchildren, wow!) and imagine the reclaimed time is a nice thing to have. The time "drain" of these two little ones (and the sleep drain) definitely changed my outlook on work a bit. I used to be a "work til its done" kind of guy but now it's more "work until the babies wake up" like you said. I find it hard to get things done this way and am still adjusting. Development to me has always been a momentum game, when in the zone don't stop. Now I am forced to stop which has been a difficult adjustment. Sean
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GStrad wrote:
Don't you use any fiddle for productive hours
In this company I used to work at years ago, an engineer friend of mine, Chuck Ross, used the "Ross Rule of PI" - multiply every time estimate by 3.14. He would usually be right--between software, hardware, and actual equipment manufacturing (the company made low light, multispectral, and high speed (at that time) cameras), he was usually right! Marc
Actually, 3.14 is a schedule multiplier, for running around in a circle.
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Actually, 3.14 is a schedule multiplier, for running around in a circle.
James Lonero wrote:
Actually, 3.14 is a schedule multiplier, for running around in a circle.
:laugh: Marc
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First of all, it depends on which side of the fence you are. If you are a driven entrepreneur it can probably go up to 80 hours a week. Also if you work for a financial institution like in Wall Street or a big law firm that number also stands. On the other hand, if you are an employee there is a chance your work week is around 40 hours per week. I've heard that the optimal work week is around 40 - 50 per week, and that if you consistently put around 80 you can develop traumas. In any case, how much hours do you put in and what do you think is optimal?
I'm at my job about 45 hours a week on average and get paid for 40. Except for a minimal amount of time per day I'm "working" the whole time. Much of the "work" is administrative (meetings, paperwork, timekeeping), helping others with problems they can't solve, and fiddling with server stuff. I consider it a good job if I am at a place where I can get in 20+ hours of "real work" (i.e. programming/learning) per week. Optimal depends on the circumstances - at previous jobs I have been pushed to make artificial deadlines and I find that really demoralizing, really quickly. If I feel like I should have done something faster and I'm catching up 'on my own time' the longer hours don't bother me as much or as soon.
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Do you have children Walt? I used to think like you but once I had children aka I had to change my way of thinking. Nanny's go home and I need to be there if my wife is busy with something etc. I also owe it to them to spend time with them. I guess it's easy to not put a time limit on "work" if that's the thing you enjoy most and have no other responsibilities. When you have other things you have to do that luxury goes away unfortunately and you have to start budgeting your time appropriately. Sean
I'll second that. Kids, wife, boat, farm, whatever. If you have more than one thing in life, then you "have to" (want to?) manage the time you spend on each of them. In my last gig we had a couple of in-house jokes In our group we had "Work balance" (instead of work-life balance) We had 2 casual dress work days per week. Saturday and Sunday In my current gig, neither of the above apply. The team is happier, more productive, way more pleasant to work with, and getting comparable results. (And I get to spend time with the kids, wife & boat) Good advice is always certain to be ignored, but that's no reason not to give it.
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I always make sure my contract exactly defines the worling hours and that's what I work; no more, no less, no argumnet. If they want more and are willing to pay then no problem. What I can't abide are employers that sign a contract stating the hours and then expect you to work extra fro nothing. Try getting a plumber or lawyer to do 2 more hours and not expect to get paid. It's called taking the piss.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair. nils illegitimus carborundum me, me, me