Need advice
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My manager at my job (not a programmer) has offered me a project (not a part of our job). He got some clients who need to develop an application and he wants me to do that application. It’s like rest services + web interface + live mapping on Google + database + server setup hosting etc... As I have done similar applications before he knows that i can do all this pretty quickly, he is willing to pay me an hourly rate. I am quite unhappy now as i think he might be taking huge amount from the client (assuming) and i may be getting less that 5% of the total. 1) Am i thinking wrong and getting greedy. :| 2) Should I not give the source code. Any way to deal with this.:confused:
You need to talk to your manager and make him aware of your concerns. If you are going to form a relationship outside the workplace then you need to know exactly where you stand. Unless of course he is just offering an hourly rate and you have absolutely no creative input into the project, in which case you are a code monkey and can be fed peanuts. You need to avoid the situation where you are the designer and builder of the solution and still get fed peanuts. You cannot go into this type of arrangement resenting the managers position before you even start. Talk to him!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
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If you're paid what you're worth what does it matter what your boss makes? Of course, it's up to you to ensure that you're making what you're worth without over-stating your worth.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997Couldn't have put it any better... John's got it right
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that project is not part of our job its outside the job... like freelancing with your own manager.
It's still unethical to hold out something you've been paid to do.... And greedy.... Don't do that, you'll burn more bridges than u think
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It's still unethical to hold out something you've been paid to do.... And greedy.... Don't do that, you'll burn more bridges than u think
ok decided i will give the code...
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ok decided i will give the code...
It's the right thing to do :thumbsup:
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My manager at my job (not a programmer) has offered me a project (not a part of our job). He got some clients who need to develop an application and he wants me to do that application. It’s like rest services + web interface + live mapping on Google + database + server setup hosting etc... As I have done similar applications before he knows that i can do all this pretty quickly, he is willing to pay me an hourly rate. I am quite unhappy now as i think he might be taking huge amount from the client (assuming) and i may be getting less that 5% of the total. 1) Am i thinking wrong and getting greedy. :| 2) Should I not give the source code. Any way to deal with this.:confused:
You will have to be careful when doing this kind of work. You probably might lose your job if your current employer get to know about this. If it is not a problem to them you can continue after all it all money. You will have to charge a reasonable hourly rate and forget about the amount that your manager is getting. I'm pretty sure he has done a good job to get that work for him. So think about a reasonable hourly rate and discuss with your manager.
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My manager at my job (not a programmer) has offered me a project (not a part of our job). He got some clients who need to develop an application and he wants me to do that application. It’s like rest services + web interface + live mapping on Google + database + server setup hosting etc... As I have done similar applications before he knows that i can do all this pretty quickly, he is willing to pay me an hourly rate. I am quite unhappy now as i think he might be taking huge amount from the client (assuming) and i may be getting less that 5% of the total. 1) Am i thinking wrong and getting greedy. :| 2) Should I not give the source code. Any way to deal with this.:confused:
saxenaabhi6 wrote:
(not a part of our job)
You said it's not part of your job, but would you be working on the job during work hours? If not then you should consider negotiating with him a freelance rate since you will be doing this on your own time (albeit with a discount since he is your boss) I understand he is your boss and all, so it's a sticky situation but you should make it worth your time.
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My manager at my job (not a programmer) has offered me a project (not a part of our job). He got some clients who need to develop an application and he wants me to do that application. It’s like rest services + web interface + live mapping on Google + database + server setup hosting etc... As I have done similar applications before he knows that i can do all this pretty quickly, he is willing to pay me an hourly rate. I am quite unhappy now as i think he might be taking huge amount from the client (assuming) and i may be getting less that 5% of the total. 1) Am i thinking wrong and getting greedy. :| 2) Should I not give the source code. Any way to deal with this.:confused:
If you are a full-time employee of the company, with salary, benefits, etc., and your manager is asking you to work outside your job without your company's knowledge ... but making use of the code and knowledge you have gained at your workplace from your work ... then I think you have been put in a difficult ethical position, and I agree with Viraj's comment that you could well lose your job. In the U.S., I am sure an employee of a company who 'moonlighted' and made use of any code or knowledge gained on the job could well be sued by the employer if they became aware their tools, or code, were used outside the company. While you might not be the direct target of a lawsuit, you get tied up in legal proceedings that could cost you big-time, and affect your employability elsewhere. If I were in your shoes, and my manager made this kind of offer, I would go to an attorney familiar with labor law, make sure I was informed about legal aspects of this kind of conflict of interest, and, perhaps, create a document stating exactly what happened, when, and notarize it, and file it for your protection in the future, to be used if somehow you got discriminated against because you pi**ed your manager off by refusing to moonlight, or fired for some reason. Your manager is either self-destructing, or has incredibly bad judgement, or is a thief, in my opinion ... or all three. good luck, Bill
"In the River of Delights, Panic has not failed me." Jorge Luis Borges
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If you are a full-time employee of the company, with salary, benefits, etc., and your manager is asking you to work outside your job without your company's knowledge ... but making use of the code and knowledge you have gained at your workplace from your work ... then I think you have been put in a difficult ethical position, and I agree with Viraj's comment that you could well lose your job. In the U.S., I am sure an employee of a company who 'moonlighted' and made use of any code or knowledge gained on the job could well be sued by the employer if they became aware their tools, or code, were used outside the company. While you might not be the direct target of a lawsuit, you get tied up in legal proceedings that could cost you big-time, and affect your employability elsewhere. If I were in your shoes, and my manager made this kind of offer, I would go to an attorney familiar with labor law, make sure I was informed about legal aspects of this kind of conflict of interest, and, perhaps, create a document stating exactly what happened, when, and notarize it, and file it for your protection in the future, to be used if somehow you got discriminated against because you pi**ed your manager off by refusing to moonlight, or fired for some reason. Your manager is either self-destructing, or has incredibly bad judgement, or is a thief, in my opinion ... or all three. good luck, Bill
"In the River of Delights, Panic has not failed me." Jorge Luis Borges
My employer insists on our disclosing any outside work to them, ostentatiously to avoid potential conflicts of interest; prohibits using company hardware/software for it, and insists on the right to bid on the contract themselves (although considering the difference between corporate overhead and self employment tax this is more theoretical than real). That's more or less it; on paper they've got the right to veto stuff if you're using very specialized skills learned at work, but I've never heard of them doing so. The impression I've got is that their general opinion is that the skills learned moonlighting make me more useful to them in the future.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
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My employer insists on our disclosing any outside work to them, ostentatiously to avoid potential conflicts of interest; prohibits using company hardware/software for it, and insists on the right to bid on the contract themselves (although considering the difference between corporate overhead and self employment tax this is more theoretical than real). That's more or less it; on paper they've got the right to veto stuff if you're using very specialized skills learned at work, but I've never heard of them doing so. The impression I've got is that their general opinion is that the skills learned moonlighting make me more useful to them in the future.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
I refuse to work for any employer that thinks they can stop me writing code outside the office. Now using company hardware/software to do it I totally agree that they have that right. After all they paid for it to further their business, not yours. But when it comes to knowledge gained.... that's where it gets sticky. If its customized algorithms or some such that you are using outside, then I can see their point. If its simply generic programming knowledge that you happened to learn while with them. they can stick it in my opinion. Because if I learned how to program for iPhones at their request to do an app for them, under that train of thought they can then say I can never program for iPhone anywhere else. BS... Now again, if I was trying to steal their direct customer after learning it, they win, if I was using their ideas to create a competing app, they win, if I was using their equipment/software, they win. but they do not win when it comes to my creating an app that has nothing to do with them, done STRICTLY on my time, my equipment and my idea.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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If you are a full-time employee of the company, with salary, benefits, etc., and your manager is asking you to work outside your job without your company's knowledge ... but making use of the code and knowledge you have gained at your workplace from your work ... then I think you have been put in a difficult ethical position, and I agree with Viraj's comment that you could well lose your job. In the U.S., I am sure an employee of a company who 'moonlighted' and made use of any code or knowledge gained on the job could well be sued by the employer if they became aware their tools, or code, were used outside the company. While you might not be the direct target of a lawsuit, you get tied up in legal proceedings that could cost you big-time, and affect your employability elsewhere. If I were in your shoes, and my manager made this kind of offer, I would go to an attorney familiar with labor law, make sure I was informed about legal aspects of this kind of conflict of interest, and, perhaps, create a document stating exactly what happened, when, and notarize it, and file it for your protection in the future, to be used if somehow you got discriminated against because you pi**ed your manager off by refusing to moonlight, or fired for some reason. Your manager is either self-destructing, or has incredibly bad judgement, or is a thief, in my opinion ... or all three. good luck, Bill
"In the River of Delights, Panic has not failed me." Jorge Luis Borges
I think the answer is to make absolutely sure you do not use their code or equipment or software. As long as you do not use their methods(ie.. some special accounting algorithm or some such thing) any of their paid for stuff, not competing against them with one of their customers or against some software or system you know they are developing, then it should not be a problem. And not to mention that you do it strictly on your own time. As far as his current situation where its a manager at work... I agree with you that hes in a difficult spot. Saying no could come back to haunt in subtle ways. But before doing it I would definitely look into what is going on and make double damn sure he was not crossing the line against his company.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
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I think the answer is to make absolutely sure you do not use their code or equipment or software. As long as you do not use their methods(ie.. some special accounting algorithm or some such thing) any of their paid for stuff, not competing against them with one of their customers or against some software or system you know they are developing, then it should not be a problem. And not to mention that you do it strictly on your own time. As far as his current situation where its a manager at work... I agree with you that hes in a difficult spot. Saying no could come back to haunt in subtle ways. But before doing it I would definitely look into what is going on and make double damn sure he was not crossing the line against his company.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning. Be careful which toes you step on today, they might be connected to the foot that kicks your butt tomorrow. You can't scare me, I have children.
gavindon wrote:
As far as his current situation where its a manager at work... I agree with you that hes in a difficult spot. Saying no could come back to haunt in subtle ways. But before doing it I would definitely look into what is going on and make double damn sure he was not crossing the line against his company.
Yup. One thing the OP needs to do is make sure the rest of his employers leadership are aware of what his boss is doing and wants him to do. Ideally the company would have a designated ethics person to discuss it with. If not, the bosses boss is probably a good place to start.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius
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My manager at my job (not a programmer) has offered me a project (not a part of our job). He got some clients who need to develop an application and he wants me to do that application. It’s like rest services + web interface + live mapping on Google + database + server setup hosting etc... As I have done similar applications before he knows that i can do all this pretty quickly, he is willing to pay me an hourly rate. I am quite unhappy now as i think he might be taking huge amount from the client (assuming) and i may be getting less that 5% of the total. 1) Am i thinking wrong and getting greedy. :| 2) Should I not give the source code. Any way to deal with this.:confused:
Thanks a lot to all.... BTW I am not using any company’s work; on the other hand whatever intellectual property my company holds in ‘web development’ is most of what I did from scratch. Finally, I am planning to finish the project get paid by my manager on top and then switch to some other company which I was already planning for long. ;)
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Thanks a lot to all.... BTW I am not using any company’s work; on the other hand whatever intellectual property my company holds in ‘web development’ is most of what I did from scratch. Finally, I am planning to finish the project get paid by my manager on top and then switch to some other company which I was already planning for long. ;)
Hi, Perhaps I painted too 'dark' a picture in my comment, Saxena, and I think Gavindon and Dan Neely both made good points that can clarify my response. There is a great difference between your general programming skills, and in-depth knowledge of computer languages, OS's, web development, etc., and trade-secrets and proprietary company information which, if made public, or shared with competitors of the company could damage a company's revenues, or competitive advantage; I should have stressed that in my answer. Many companies can and do have employees sign non-competes when they are hired depending on what their job role is, and what specialized company-owned information and source-code they will have access to. Some companies, in terminating an employee, offer a termination financial package if the employee signs a non-compete, most often for some specific term, usually a year. Labor law, in the U.S. on a state basis, can come into play here: for example, in the state of Washington in the U.S., a court threw out a suit brought by a company against a dismissed employee who had signed a non-compete in order to get a termination package and who, the company believed, had violated the non-compete. Why did the court throw out the suit: because the defendant offered clear evidence that another employee had flagrantly violated the non-compete, and the company had not pursued that other employee. All that said, I think your manager "smells wrong," and you are doing the right thing to make a change. good luck, Bill
"In the River of Delights, Panic has not failed me." Jorge Luis Borges
