Web design: Text size vs. zoom
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I agree, but screen readers have nothing to do with the question of zoom vs. text size. The question is more about making content available to people who are visually impared rather than blind, or who (alas, like me) are getting to an age where they forget where they've left those damned reading glasses.
They are on your head. Or at least that's where I usually find mine. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra] posting about Crystal Reports here is like discussing gay marriage on a catholic church’s website.[Nishant Sivakumar]
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
You should design your site so that it plays nicely with font size changes. That generally means not using fixed size elements and being aware of where text overflows when it is increased in size (or, semi-equivalently, the browser window is made smaller). You should be doing all that anyway because you don't know what pixel size your site will be viewed at, so text size shouldn't be a big factor in your design. It doesn't matter if it doesn't look quite as nice (as you say most browsers by default scale images as well), but it should at least degrade gracefully.
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In my opinion, I will stay away from the zoom, since it distorts the images and other graphics. intead I will choose text size big enough that, most of the user will not need to zoom. now a days most of the users have > 1024 width so you can design the website with larger fonts without any problem. And if larger font is not an option due to lot of content, then you can just provide 'A' and 'A' at the top where you change the stylesheet which has larger fonts.
You cannot 'stay away from the zoom', as a designer. It is a user option in the browser. As a designer it's your responsibility to play nicely with the user's choices. Your website's default font size should be similar to other websites so they don't have to pick different settings to view yours (more likely, they'll just not look at yours if it annoys them). Just because most screens are >1024px doesn't mean that your site will be, either (particularly with the W7 ability to quickly move a window to one side of the screen).
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You cannot 'stay away from the zoom', as a designer. It is a user option in the browser. As a designer it's your responsibility to play nicely with the user's choices. Your website's default font size should be similar to other websites so they don't have to pick different settings to view yours (more likely, they'll just not look at yours if it annoys them). Just because most screens are >1024px doesn't mean that your site will be, either (particularly with the W7 ability to quickly move a window to one side of the screen).
BobJanova wrote:
You cannot 'stay away from the zoom', as a designer
Well, I was trying to say that it's a automatic thing comes with browser. so dont rely on it, and use proper font size so that most of the people dont have to use zoom (because many of them dont know they can zoom). but you cant choose 10pt fonts and think that people will zoom if they cant read.
BobJanova wrote:
Just because most screens are >1024px doesn't mean that your site will be, either (particularly with the W7 ability to quickly move a window to one side of the screen).
For this you have to design fluid layout intead of fixed width, that has nothing to do with font size (because you still have the higher resolution, and people with 1024 screen width are not going to use Aero snap). :)
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BobJanova wrote:
You cannot 'stay away from the zoom', as a designer
Well, I was trying to say that it's a automatic thing comes with browser. so dont rely on it, and use proper font size so that most of the people dont have to use zoom (because many of them dont know they can zoom). but you cant choose 10pt fonts and think that people will zoom if they cant read.
BobJanova wrote:
Just because most screens are >1024px doesn't mean that your site will be, either (particularly with the W7 ability to quickly move a window to one side of the screen).
For this you have to design fluid layout intead of fixed width, that has nothing to do with font size (because you still have the higher resolution, and people with 1024 screen width are not going to use Aero snap). :)
The default 'content text' size on most sites is about 10pt. Here on CP, it's 9pt. If you make your site 18pt, people are going to want to shrink it so it looks like other sites. (If they can't read 10pt, their browser will be set up to show larger text already.) "For this you have to design fluid layout intead of fixed width" - yes, exactly. Fixed width is usually a bad idea, as it only works in a tiny fraction of cases and looks wrong at all other widths. A fluid layout already sets you up to cope with variable text size, though, so doing that (already good) thing means you don't have to worry about the topic of this thread.
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
You're going to get opinions both ways, some saying you must use varying font sizes to those who say you must use fixed font sizes. Typically the former arguments are older arguments based on older browsers, and the latter argument based on modern browsers and their excellent zoom functionality. Me? I've always found using relative font sizes an exercise in pure pain because you're fighting so many battles at once: fonts, browser oddities, layout, CSS inheritence, the immediate problem of image scaling relative to font scaling, to name a few. My call: use absolute, not relative font sizes and let the browser and the OS scale appropriately. It's far more consistent to the user.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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You're going to get opinions both ways, some saying you must use varying font sizes to those who say you must use fixed font sizes. Typically the former arguments are older arguments based on older browsers, and the latter argument based on modern browsers and their excellent zoom functionality. Me? I've always found using relative font sizes an exercise in pure pain because you're fighting so many battles at once: fonts, browser oddities, layout, CSS inheritence, the immediate problem of image scaling relative to font scaling, to name a few. My call: use absolute, not relative font sizes and let the browser and the OS scale appropriately. It's far more consistent to the user.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
And, of course, the first thing I tried after reading your response was to change the text size of Code Project ;P
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You're going to get opinions both ways, some saying you must use varying font sizes to those who say you must use fixed font sizes. Typically the former arguments are older arguments based on older browsers, and the latter argument based on modern browsers and their excellent zoom functionality. Me? I've always found using relative font sizes an exercise in pure pain because you're fighting so many battles at once: fonts, browser oddities, layout, CSS inheritence, the immediate problem of image scaling relative to font scaling, to name a few. My call: use absolute, not relative font sizes and let the browser and the OS scale appropriately. It's far more consistent to the user.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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For me zoom would do. Your question caused me to search for Accessibility related stuff and I was surprised to see that there are no regs in the US. I did find this[^], which you might find useful.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.” I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus! When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
Section 508 is the US regulation for Electronic and Information Technology Accessibility Standards. Of course this only applies to software used by the Federal Govt (and is essentially the W3C standard+), but a good resource: http://section508.gov/[^]
"It's like the sixties, but with less hope."
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
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You're going to get opinions both ways, some saying you must use varying font sizes to those who say you must use fixed font sizes. Typically the former arguments are older arguments based on older browsers, and the latter argument based on modern browsers and their excellent zoom functionality. Me? I've always found using relative font sizes an exercise in pure pain because you're fighting so many battles at once: fonts, browser oddities, layout, CSS inheritence, the immediate problem of image scaling relative to font scaling, to name a few. My call: use absolute, not relative font sizes and let the browser and the OS scale appropriately. It's far more consistent to the user.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
You're going to get opinions both ways, some saying you must use varying font sizes to those who say you must use fixed font sizes. Typically the former arguments are older arguments based on older browsers, and the latter argument based on modern browsers and their excellent zoom functionality.
Exactly! IMHO, most people who argue against fixed font sizes are just parroting what they read in old books or design related blogs or websites. In addition, I would suggest reading up on "Progressive Enhancement."
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
I have always been a proponent of fixed layouts. That way, you, the designer, have a lot more control over the design and presentation of the website, and can offer the user a better experience. This in turn will lead to better results for the site owner (you or your client/employer) - more signups, more sales, whatever. This means fixed font sizes, fixed widths, fixed image and box sizes, and so on. Let the browser handle the rest. I don't agree with the view that the user should be in complete control of how the site looks. You don't control the way your paper books are designed, do you? Nor do you change the font size in them. Or the colors. Of course, do be sure to create your design with the needs of your audience in mind, but that doesn't necessarily mean letting them play with every damn thing in your design.
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In my opinion, I will stay away from the zoom, since it distorts the images and other graphics. intead I will choose text size big enough that, most of the user will not need to zoom. now a days most of the users have > 1024 width so you can design the website with larger fonts without any problem. And if larger font is not an option due to lot of content, then you can just provide 'A' and 'A' at the top where you change the stylesheet which has larger fonts.
Rutvik Dave wrote:
now a days most of the users have > 1024 width so you can design the website with larger fonts without any problem.
I just had to deal with a third party website that made the exact same assumptions. They where wrong assumptions...
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
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In my opinion, I will stay away from the zoom, since it distorts the images and other graphics. intead I will choose text size big enough that, most of the user will not need to zoom. now a days most of the users have > 1024 width so you can design the website with larger fonts without any problem. And if larger font is not an option due to lot of content, then you can just provide 'A' and 'A' at the top where you change the stylesheet which has larger fonts.
Make that assumption and 99% of netbook users will beat a path to your door... ... carrying flaming torches and pitchforks.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Make that assumption and 99% of netbook users will beat a path to your door... ... carrying flaming torches and pitchforks.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Dan Neely wrote:
99% of netbook users
But you can still ignore them from 'most of the users' right ? ...and 99% of those 99% will have atleast 1024 screen width. (even tablets have that resolution now a days)
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Dan Neely wrote:
99% of netbook users
But you can still ignore them from 'most of the users' right ? ...and 99% of those 99% will have atleast 1024 screen width. (even tablets have that resolution now a days)
You wrote "> 1024" not ">= 1024", it's just as much of a bug IRL as in code; :doh: >1024 resolutions in 10" netbooks are very rare; I have one but it cost ~$100 extra and the text is borderline too small unless you zoom and defeat the whole purpose of a higher res screen.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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You wrote "> 1024" not ">= 1024", it's just as much of a bug IRL as in code; :doh: >1024 resolutions in 10" netbooks are very rare; I have one but it cost ~$100 extra and the text is borderline too small unless you zoom and defeat the whole purpose of a higher res screen.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
Oh... you are as picky as my compiler :doh: OK...ok... my bad, I meant >= 1024. :)
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
I'm going to express the middle age viewpoint here. IF YOU MAKE THE TEXT TOO SMALL OR TOO LIGHT, I WON'T STAY AT YOUR SITE, AND I WILL BUY FROM SOMEONE ELSE. It's that simple. Quiche-eating, jasmine tea sucking design Nazis may think 4 point light gray text on an off-white background is divine, but I won't stay at a site that uses it, because I CAN'T FUCKING READ IT.
Software Zen:
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Not quite the light hearted bacon-related post that has become standard fare in the Lounge, :~ but I'm interested in people's opinion. Is it still advisable to style website for changes in text size? Most browsers support zoom, which will scale the page evenly. The relative proportion of graphical elements such as images and text size remain constant. This makes pages much easier to design: text written across a 200px graphic background will look pretty much the same at increased and decreased magnification. Changing text size, which is the older implementation of making pages accessable to people with vision difficulties, will scale the size of the text while keeping all other layout and graphical elements the same size. My question comes from a site I'm helping to design. I only need to support recent browsers, all of which support zoom. Relying on zoom for accessability will make design much easier, but I'm not sure yet about moving away from established recommendations. Anyone have something to say the matter?
I thought Zoom was an IE thing?! Or is it just used to fix things in IE (HasLayout for CSS!)
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Um, no, your question was about accessibility. There are many non-blind users that use screen readers as a tool for accessibility because corrective lenses are not available to solve the issue. If you want to make a website easier to view for people that wear corrective lenses but can't be bothered to put them on that is one thing but to confuse it with making your site accessible is another. For the effort involved, I see no reason not to just make your site actually accessible. (Although, to be honest my current website is not).
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. I also do Android Programming as I find it a refreshing break from the MS. "And they, since they Were not the one dead, turned to their affairs" -- Robert Frost
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
If you want to make a website easier to view for people that wear corrective lenses but can't be bothered to put them on that is one thing but to confuse it with making your site accessible is another.
As a wearer of glasses since age 4, my eyes now are causing me problems with reading. Because of my prescription, I can't use bi-focals or vari-focals. All I can do is have a second pair of glasses, so I am a user of Zoom and would recommend that this solves your problem. BUT whatever you do, don't follow the path of google. :( Since I moved from Alta-Vista I have been using google, but on my IPAD I have stopped, because they introduced a "better" mobile version which does NOT allow you to zoom the results. Do fall into this trap!