Following on form Daves harrowing account in the Lounge...
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I agree - I am not a parent but living in Cambridge I see lot's of young people around the place - not all of them university students. Many of them are friendly, polite, helpful and kind - this argument that young people are worse nowadays existed back in the 70's when I was a kid. Taking this to its logical conclusion kids must be psychopaths if they have continued to get worse since the 70's and earlier... The looting was about people getting caught in a group frenzie(whatever you want to call it) - it's not so difficult to understand if I try and put myself in their shoes...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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GuyThiebaut wrote:
You are kidding right?
No, because we are talking about UK population, since that where the riots were, and specifically about unchecked violent behaviour by under 16s in the UK. The UKs white population hasnt changed since the 70s (in some areas it might have declined, due to the loss of traditional heavy industries in those areas). Emigration has increased the population slightly, but this is mostly centered around London and other popular cities for Pakistanis (Bradford, Leeds etc). But even this change isnt that great.
============================== Nothing to say.
clickety[^] UK --> 55.6 million to 61.8 million in 39 years - doing the maths that makes it an 11% increase according to me. My interpretation of that is that we have had a large increase in population in the last 39 years.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
But even this change isn't that great
Also I don't see where nationality comes into this as increase is increase irrespective of nationality...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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clickety[^] UK --> 55.6 million to 61.8 million in 39 years - doing the maths that makes it an 11% increase according to me. My interpretation of that is that we have had a large increase in population in the last 39 years.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
But even this change isn't that great
Also I don't see where nationality comes into this as increase is increase irrespective of nationality...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
As stated, the population increase is due to imigration (birth and fertility rate in the UK has been falling for a long time: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/research/nordic/ukdemo.PDF[^]) Immigrants tend to gravitate to wards the larger cities, (or areas where there already is a community), therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour, which was what I was arguing against. However it is quite probable that violence and criminality has increased among ethic groups becuse their population has increased, ie, being greater in number. The argument staill stands: The law as it stands today cannot handle efectively under age crime. Crime for which there are no excuses. This situation must change by locking these children away.
============================== Nothing to say.
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As stated, the population increase is due to imigration (birth and fertility rate in the UK has been falling for a long time: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/research/nordic/ukdemo.PDF[^]) Immigrants tend to gravitate to wards the larger cities, (or areas where there already is a community), therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour, which was what I was arguing against. However it is quite probable that violence and criminality has increased among ethic groups becuse their population has increased, ie, being greater in number. The argument staill stands: The law as it stands today cannot handle efectively under age crime. Crime for which there are no excuses. This situation must change by locking these children away.
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour
Of course it can. Do you think it is the kids of the upper middle class, out in the big houses in the country doing this? It is kids already in the areas where mass migration is to that see their prospects diluted, their housing squeezed, as well as being exposed on a daily basis to new criminality in the migrant populations. To say there is no link at all simply does not work. To blame everything on one point and deny all others simply does not work.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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As stated, the population increase is due to imigration (birth and fertility rate in the UK has been falling for a long time: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/research/nordic/ukdemo.PDF[^]) Immigrants tend to gravitate to wards the larger cities, (or areas where there already is a community), therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour, which was what I was arguing against. However it is quite probable that violence and criminality has increased among ethic groups becuse their population has increased, ie, being greater in number. The argument staill stands: The law as it stands today cannot handle efectively under age crime. Crime for which there are no excuses. This situation must change by locking these children away.
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
This situation must change by locking these children away.
England already locks up more children than the rest of Europe. The numbers of children in English prisons has more than doubled in the last decade. And re-conviction rates of children leaving prison is something like 85%.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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As stated, the population increase is due to imigration (birth and fertility rate in the UK has been falling for a long time: http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/spru/research/nordic/ukdemo.PDF[^]) Immigrants tend to gravitate to wards the larger cities, (or areas where there already is a community), therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour, which was what I was arguing against. However it is quite probable that violence and criminality has increased among ethic groups becuse their population has increased, ie, being greater in number. The argument staill stands: The law as it stands today cannot handle efectively under age crime. Crime for which there are no excuses. This situation must change by locking these children away.
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
The law as it stands today cannot handle efectively under age crime.
I am in complete agreement with you on that:thumbsup:
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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Erudite__Eric wrote:
therefore it cannot be argued that population increase has caused white, British children to become more violent and more criminal in behaviour
Of course it can. Do you think it is the kids of the upper middle class, out in the big houses in the country doing this? It is kids already in the areas where mass migration is to that see their prospects diluted, their housing squeezed, as well as being exposed on a daily basis to new criminality in the migrant populations. To say there is no link at all simply does not work. To blame everything on one point and deny all others simply does not work.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
ChrisElston wrote:
Of course it can.
Of course it cant, since tith the birth rate falling in the UK, and immigrants gravitating towards the larger cities, the kind of criminal behaviour exhibited by kids across the cpuntry cannot be blamed on population increase since it is not increasing across the country. What you are suggesting is that ouit side of the large cities there are only middle class children.
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Erudite__Eric wrote:
This situation must change by locking these children away.
England already locks up more children than the rest of Europe. The numbers of children in English prisons has more than doubled in the last decade. And re-conviction rates of children leaving prison is something like 85%.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Do you have any figures for these assertions? Also, what percentage of child crime results in a custodial sentence today compared to decades ago?
============================== Nothing to say.
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clickety[^] UK --> 55.6 million to 61.8 million in 39 years - doing the maths that makes it an 11% increase according to me. My interpretation of that is that we have had a large increase in population in the last 39 years.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
But even this change isn't that great
Also I don't see where nationality comes into this as increase is increase irrespective of nationality...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
11% over 39 years is around an increase of 2 per thousand per year. Not a lot.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Far more now, one of the first acts of Blair's government was to pass two pieces of legislation to make it easier to jail both more, and younger, children.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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11% over 39 years is around an increase of 2 per thousand per year. Not a lot.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
That does not sound like a lot! Although I live in a large town, Cambridge, and since I moved here in 1995 there have been many more houses built and it is definitely more crowded than it was 16 years ago - probably to do with people gravitating towards where the money is...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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That does not sound like a lot! Although I live in a large town, Cambridge, and since I moved here in 1995 there have been many more houses built and it is definitely more crowded than it was 16 years ago - probably to do with people gravitating towards where the money is...
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
Cambridge has become a kind of IT center for the UK, so it has seen growth. But, do not forget, as I showed earlier, the birth rate in the UK has been declining steadilly for many decades. The only population growth over this time comes from imigration.
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So you dont have any figures then to back up your assertion. Untill you can, I can not accept what you say as true.
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Figures and reports are all over the internet. It isn't important enough to me to spend time pulling them together into a neat summary for you. If you want to just believe something rather than actually looking up what has been going on then that effects me not one bit. Numbers of children prison has actually gone down a lot in the last 2 years but only because they have run out of money. The vast majority of children in prison were convicted of non-violent crimes anyway.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Cambridge has become a kind of IT center for the UK, so it has seen growth. But, do not forget, as I showed earlier, the birth rate in the UK has been declining steadilly for many decades. The only population growth over this time comes from imigration.
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
The only population growth over this time comes from imigration.
As of 2009: UK birth rate - 10.65 / 1000 UK death rate = 10.02 / 1000 I know maths is hard, but ...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Figures and reports are all over the internet. It isn't important enough to me to spend time pulling them together into a neat summary for you. If you want to just believe something rather than actually looking up what has been going on then that effects me not one bit. Numbers of children prison has actually gone down a lot in the last 2 years but only because they have run out of money. The vast majority of children in prison were convicted of non-violent crimes anyway.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
This is sounding more and more like an opinion you hold due to something you heard that has no basis in fact. We know that the borstals were shut, yet you say there are more kids in detendtion than before. Can you see where I have a problem believing you? In any case, lets say you are right, that there are more under 16s in custody today than in the 90s, how does this compare with the 70s since it is well before the last ten years that uncontrolable kids became a problem in spociety.
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Erudite__Eric wrote:
The only population growth over this time comes from imigration.
As of 2009: UK birth rate - 10.65 / 1000 UK death rate = 10.02 / 1000 I know maths is hard, but ...
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
Nagy Vilmos wrote:
I know maths is hard, but ...
Man, you rerally do like it simple dont you. Births by native British people are declining to the point of non replacement. Meanwhile the population has increased due to immigration, immigrants who happen to die in Britain, unsurprisingly, and happen to have more children than British people. And also something like 0.5 million British people live in France (let alone Spain and elsewhere). Time to redo your maths. :laugh:
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wizardzz wrote:
This is not the exact case, but it happens all the time:
http://archive.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/08/officer-struck-by-a-vehicle-in-south-chicago-neighborhood.html[^]I love google map's street view, I can see exactly the intersection where it happened. It even has an elevated train, very cool. I've been invited to visit our office in Chicago this year but there seems to always be a reason to keep putting it off.
_Josh_ wrote:
I've been invited to visit our office in Chicago this year but there seems to always be a reason to keep putting it off.
Come during the summer months, and only if the Chicago office is in the city. People use Chicago as a term to include the suburbs to nonnatives, and the 'burbs are mostly an entertainment and culinary wasteland.
"I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. " — Hunter S. Thompson My comedy.
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This is sounding more and more like an opinion you hold due to something you heard that has no basis in fact. We know that the borstals were shut, yet you say there are more kids in detendtion than before. Can you see where I have a problem believing you? In any case, lets say you are right, that there are more under 16s in custody today than in the 90s, how does this compare with the 70s since it is well before the last ten years that uncontrolable kids became a problem in spociety.
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite__Eric wrote:
We know that the borstals were shut, yet you say there are more kids in detendtion than before.
They didn't just shit the borstals down, kick everyone and out and stop locking anymore up you know, they just renamed them or created new institutions. The names have changed a number of times since then too. I have been in 3 of them myself for various different reasons and live quite close to one now. In fact I watched the police beating up a stocky ginger kid who had escaped from it just last week.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
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Erudite__Eric wrote:
We know that the borstals were shut, yet you say there are more kids in detendtion than before.
They didn't just shit the borstals down, kick everyone and out and stop locking anymore up you know, they just renamed them or created new institutions. The names have changed a number of times since then too. I have been in 3 of them myself for various different reasons and live quite close to one now. In fact I watched the police beating up a stocky ginger kid who had escaped from it just last week.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.